Flaunting frogs of smuggled origins - E. mysteriosus

General Dart Frog Questions and Comments. Care and Husbandry

Flaunting frogs of smuggled origins - E. mysteriosus

Postby edwardsatc » Thu Apr 28, 2011 6:21 pm

I didn't want to hijack the current thread, so I started a new one.

I find it a bit irritating that folks are congratulating others for the “great looking” Excidobates mysteriosus. Does anyone have a problem with the fact that this is one of the few frogs that we know is absolutely from smuggled origins?

I rarely get on my high horse about smuggled frogs, but this is one instance where I think a spade should be called a spade. Let’s not encourage the flaunting of these frogs.

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Re: Flaunting frogs of smuggled origins - E. Mysteriosus

Postby Philsuma » Thu Apr 28, 2011 8:29 pm

I was expecting this, actually. Here's my 02. Donn......

I will fully admit that I have absolutely NO working knowledge of this species - from when it was discovered, it's probable range to how it became fully intrenched in the European Hobby.

What I DO know, is that this animal is openly sold at HAMM in Germany. It's found to be not uncommon in Dutch and U.K hobbyists collections. The going rate is on par with pumilio, in price.

It is regularly advertised for sale on E.U forums.

Until someone over there (or over on this side of the pond) can enlighten us on the full legality and surrounding issues of this particular species, I cannot form an educated opinion.

Also.....you can substitute at least a dozen other species here in the U.S for the subject line of this thread, if we are going to go about it that way.
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Re: Flaunting frogs of smuggled origins - E. Mysteriosus

Postby Tony » Thu Apr 28, 2011 8:58 pm

edwardsatc wrote:Does anyone have a problem with the fact that this is one of the few frogs that we know is absolutely from smuggled origins?



I see it as living proof that prohibition does not work. The frogs will make their way into captivity at some point, whether by smuggling or a properly managed sustainable harvest.
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Re: Flaunting frogs of smuggled origins - E. Mysteriosus

Postby Michael Lawrence » Thu Apr 28, 2011 9:47 pm

Being that most dart frogs, Mysteriosus included, are here now , I see no point in them being banned. If those who have them go unpunished ,either make them legal to own or make it hell on them.

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Re: Flaunting frogs of smuggled origins - E. Mysteriosus

Postby edwardsatc » Thu Apr 28, 2011 10:08 pm

From Dendrobates.org :

Conservation status

The three ‘stable’ biotopes of this frog have been bought by IUCN, a Dutch conservation organization. Two of these habitats hold a population of less then 200 specimens. To be sure this frog will survive in future, more potential mysteriosus forest should be protected. The old-growth trees with Aechmea are very rare, and have been mostly destroyed. Smuggling took its toll on the small populations in the late 90s, putting them at even more risk than they already were. This is now a somewhat common frog in Europe, completely of illegal origin, and the potential for local conservation projects based on the sale of legal mysteriosus is now severely compromised.
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Re: Flaunting frogs of smuggled origins - E. Mysteriosus

Postby Tony » Thu Apr 28, 2011 10:19 pm

edwardsatc wrote:the potential for local conservation projects based on the sale of legal mysteriosus is now severely compromised.


I don't buy that. There is nothing stopping a responsible operation like UE from working with them except for bureaucrats throwing temper tantrums because the smugglers got there first. They aren't going to be able to stop smuggling, and refusing to work with legal businesses will only encourage the smugglers.
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Re: Flaunting frogs of smuggled origins - E. Mysteriosus

Postby JJuchems » Thu Apr 28, 2011 11:40 pm

It is really no different than Adelphobates castaneoticus. They have been available enough that no on questions there legality.

CITES Amphibian Identification Guide:

Adelphobates castaneoticus pg 121
"There are no legal specimens in trade; all species abroad belong to the Brazilian government. Trade from smuggled specimens was established in about 1999 in the U.S.A. and a few years later in Europe."

http://dsp-psd.tpsgc.gc.ca/collections/ ... 1-2006.pdf
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Re: Flaunting frogs of smuggled origins - E. Mysteriosus

Postby Roadrunner » Fri Apr 29, 2011 7:47 am

The difference between the brazil nut frog and mysteriosus is that castis were brought into the US w/ a research permit and mysteriosus weren't. Also the Brazil Nut Frog isn't as particular in it's habitat and threatened in the wild, as far as I know. Also UE has been beat to the punch before they could set up a conservation goal to be funded. Mark has to breed these animals in Peru then send cb to Canada to set up a breeding program. Smugglers bring wc into the hobby immediately and undermine the efforts to do it right and conserve the species.

By my view, there is a difference and it undermines conservation efforts.
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Re: Flaunting frogs of smuggled origins - E. Mysteriosus

Postby JJuchems » Fri Apr 29, 2011 8:06 am

aaronsfrogfarm wrote:The difference between the brazil nut frog and mysteriosus is that castis were brought into the US w/ a research permit and mysteriosus weren't. Also the Brazil Nut Frog isn't as particular in it's habitat and threatened in the wild, as far as I know. Also UE has been beat to the punch before they could set up a conservation goal to be funded. Mark has to breed these animals in Peru then send cb to Canada to set up a breeding program. Smugglers bring wc into the hobby immediately and undermine the efforts to do it right and conserve the species.

By my view, there is a difference and it undermines conservation efforts.


As this is only part of the story. You are not accounting for laundered animals.

Should it matter is habitat status, should we not treat all illegal wildlife the same?
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Re: Flaunting frogs of smuggled origins - E. Mysteriosus

Postby Roadrunner » Fri Apr 29, 2011 11:07 am

No, I don't think we should treat all illegal wildlife the same. There are laws and there are real life situations. Animals destined for being destroyed after research(castis and others) are not the same as critically endangered animals taken for the hobby(mystis, lehmanni, histos/sylvaticus,other thumbs being smuggled that are already in the hobby). Research animals have nowhere to go and, to me, it's a rescue for them to go to the pet trade instead of being destroyed. It's more of an ethical dilemma for me as opposed to laws. Just because it's "legal" doesn't mean it's right in my book either. Galacts and such should be "illegal" technically but buying cb galacts, that have been in the hobby for 10+years, is nowhere near the same as buying koi histos. Would I buy white wedge galacts or black galacts or any other morph that hasn't been around for 10 years, no(unless it's an anomoly from a current morph). Is that an airtight system to stop laundering and smuggling of frogs, no, but i can't think of another way to try and curb smuggling of "legal" or illegal morphs.

And what laundered animals are you speaking of. i only know of one line of castis from one breeding group from a research project. The only mystis I know of were taken from a project working to protect them. To me there is a big difference there. That's just my opinion though. You can look at it however you want.
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Re: Flaunting frogs of smuggled origins - E. Mysteriosus

Postby Philsuma » Fri Apr 29, 2011 3:35 pm

Fixed your post Aaron.

My hobby philosophy is pretty close to yours. While one could argue that USFW laws are 100% "black and white" - for a law to be broken, there MUST be a statute written somewhere detailing what is, or is not, legal.

That said, is there such a thing as "selective" enforcement of laws ? Youbetcha. There are many cases that do not get prosecutorial approval solely because they would not likely be "win-able" in court. Fair to those who do manage to get charged with something and have to spend $$ defending themselves ? Not at all IMO.

Casti's are different from Mystis. Casti's were in the U.S legally and were purposefully leaked out into the hobby. Brazil cries foul...wants em all back, dead ones even ? Ha. Fat chance. I would think that the only recourse they have, is to get upset at the Zoological institution - which they did, and take it out on future frog permits and availability. Who really loses then ? The Zoos and the Frogs.

Who wins ? The smugglers.
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Re: Flaunting frogs of smuggled origins - E. Mysteriosus

Postby JJuchems » Fri Apr 29, 2011 5:21 pm

aaronsfrogfarm wrote: And what laundered animals are you speaking of. i only know of one line of castis from one breeding group from a research project. The only mystis I know of were taken from a project working to protect them. To me there is a big difference there. That's just my opinion though. You can look at it however you want.


Aaron I do respect your ethics, at the same time there is a point in time when the law is the law.

What laundered animals ? Is that not the point of laundered animals, you can't tell the legal from the illegal. If it has been "accepted" that casti's are legal , how are we to say that someone has not smuggled these same species into Europe or United States. Just one more reason that E. mysteriosus should not become legally available. Those with smuggled animals will just introduce them into the market.
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Re: Flaunting frogs of smuggled origins - E. Mysteriosus

Postby Roadrunner » Mon May 02, 2011 7:59 am

My point exactly. Castis have been around forever and they are not endangered and are in the hobby. They are illegal because of Brazils policy, not because they are endangered to go extinct from collecting. Mystis are endangered and only known from a few small populations. Which is why no one is worried about pics of castis but should be worried about pics of mystis. I'm not saying mystis should be in the hobby or legal. Hence the different treatment of mystis and castis. As far as I know mystis didn't come in on a research permit they were taken. Different situations which should be known and highlighted as per the original post.
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Re: Flaunting frogs of smuggled origins - E. Mysteriosus

Postby Philsuma » Mon Jul 18, 2011 11:56 am

So this Dart Frog is apparently 100% legal in the U.K but not in the Netherlands ?

I'm thinking it's legal in Germany too ?
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Re: Flaunting frogs of smuggled origins - E. Mysteriosus

Postby Stu&Shaz » Tue Jul 26, 2011 7:44 am

I guess this thread is directed at me.

All the above frogs mysties,castis and galactonus,are being sold here by our only retail dart frog specialist.These laws seen to change from country to country,it is my understanding that mysties are not legal in Holland but are in some other European countries.To me as a newcomer,seeing mysties all around me as with the other 2 species,there is absolutely nothing i can do about the fact that they were smuggled originally,my biggest wish for this hobby would be all our frogs carried papers so we all knew not only where they come from but their genetic heritage too. But that isn't the case here at least. Mysteriousus is widely breed here,in an hour or so i can be with many breeders,and that's just the one's i know about,so my keeping them or not will make no difference in the big scheme at least here. Its like the galcs they are here being bred in numbers,i have even been told that Venezuelan leucs were also never legally imported. I can't make this right by not keeping these frogs,it unfortunately will make no difference now,it might have done if our governing bodies would have sat down and got this sorted a few years ago. all we can do, I guess, is give back to the conservation organisations some of the money that we might get from the sale of our frogs if they are bred. This is mine and Shaz's intention.

My intention was not to flaunt our frogs in anyway because they are illegal over in the us,more to do what i have tried to do with the rest of our threads and show things of interest to other dart keepers.
I don't know of anyway back now that these frogs are here in such numbers,from what i have read they couldn't be simply returned back to Peru either to bulk out the remaining populations which are struggling because of habitat loss,we'd be gutted but we would give them back.

Its a shame that with only 200 frogs found and logged at some locations in the wild, that in captivity, I know of two breeders who currently have told me they have between them around 130 mystie tads in the water between them.
Here at least, a new model needs to be drawn up to help with the conservation of these wonderful frogs and to make sure that these conservation efforts are helped financially by us breeding them here. Maybe that's the best way forward, here in the UK.

If we all gave 10% of the proceeds received from selling a frog, although it won't make the situation we are in right it would be a start.

Regards,
Stu
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Re: Flaunting frogs of smuggled origins - E. Mysteriosus

Postby blocker institute » Tue Jul 26, 2011 9:39 am

Crime and the ridiculous ways in which people in power (governments) handle situations they dont understand or simply want to enforce their false sense of power, lead to these issues.

This isn't the only hobby/industry that does this. The automobile industry and many electronics are the same exact way. Many times I see an exotic car I will never be able to see in person because it's never going to make it's to the states due to the fact its' "illegal". Yet someplace there's some strings pulled or car totally stolen, so that somebody else may have it. Are there laws in place to prevent it? Sure there are. Are there people talking about how wrong it is on some forum? Maybe.

Point is there's gonna be differences in information, enforcement and opinion. So far I can't find more than 3 (consecutively) people that can agree on things as simple as pronunciation for names of some of these species.

We are all aboard in keeping lineage information as best as possible, but we can only rely on the info given to us from seller, as we all are.

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Re: Flaunting frogs of smuggled origins - E. Mysteriosus

Postby RichFrye » Tue Jul 26, 2011 3:54 pm

I don't think everyone is on the same page here, so I'll try to explain a little simple history.

Mysties are a dart species which were never exported for any reason at all from their native country. That country, Peru, has contacted several nations letting them know of their wishes to work with CITES member nations to stop the flow of their stolen property. Some nations actively seek out mysties being smuggled into their country , and some do not. The U.S.A. does follow the wishes of Peru in prosecuting the thieves and smugglers.
It's that simple.
Darts with parasites are analogous to mixed tanks, there are no known benefits to the frogs with either.


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Re: Flaunting frogs of smuggled origins - E. Mysteriosus

Postby Stu&Shaz » Thu Jul 28, 2011 7:22 am

RichFrye wrote:I don't think everyone is on the same page here, so I'll try to explain a little simple history.

Mysties are a dart species which were never exported for any reason at all from their native country. That country, Peru, has contacted several nations letting them know of their wishes to work with CITES member nations to stop the flow of their stolen property. Some nations actively seek out mysties being smuggled into their country , and some do not. The U.S.A. does follow the wishes of Peru in prosecuting the thieves and smugglers.
It's that simple.


Rich you have a profound knowledge of darts,from reading your threads. I have much respect for your thoughts. What should be done here in the UK, and other countries that have these frogs. They are here in numbers,in fact strange as it may seem they probably out number my superblue auratus by tenfold probably many more times.I was told by the shop that I bought the first one off that he has exported to japan with full cites paperwork these very frogs.They are openly for sale here,we are not buying smuggled frogs but probably f3/4 generations from when they were taken from Peru back in the late 90's someone has said earlier in this thread. If all the facts are correct in this thread...which I freely admit I don't know if they all are true,many other of our darts are in this category,say galacs for example. You know I am a novice, but I'm not a thief or a smuggler, I bought my breeding trio off a doctor's wife- good honest people.

We both care deeply about our frogs and their wild counterparts,originally we hoped that in some way we would be able to get our knowledge to such a level with years of good old honest hard work that we would be able to utilise our acquired skills in the captive breeding of darts for release back to their wild habitats,as our knowledge increases we have realised that this is an unlikely prospect. Hence what i proposed a couple of days ago when i first saw this thread.

it is unrealistic here to expect all dartkeepers not to buy these frogs and for them to just slowly disappear,someone will breed them and someone will buy them, novices like myself will make inquiries maybe not get the whole answers and buy, keep and breed these.

if I wasn't always questing for knowledge about our frogs on the Internet and visiting wonderful forums such as this frankly I would be none the wiser. My little guys would be upstairs in their room breeding away,and sooner or later some would move to someone else whom would do the same !

Regards,
Stu
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Re: Flaunting frogs of smuggled origins - E. Mysteriosus

Postby blocker institute » Thu Jul 28, 2011 9:35 am

RichFrye wrote:I don't think everyone is on the same page here, so I'll try to explain a little simple history.

Mysties are a dart species which were never exported for any reason at all from their native country. That country, Peru, has contacted several nations letting them know of their wishes to work with CITES member nations to stop the flow of their stolen property. Some nations actively seek out mysties being smuggled into their country , and some do not. The U.S.A. does follow the wishes of Peru in prosecuting the thieves and smugglers.
It's that simple.



I disagree, I believe we are all on the same exact page.

All of us want incredible frogs to care for and breed, but because of too much inaccurate/misinformation and no place to get real actual information we are still at the mercy of those that came before us. No one is excluded from this.

So how do those of us that are wanting to be in this hobby for years, protect ourselves and have up-to-the-minute information about what has been imported illegally to all countries?

Does having these mean the owners are now in violation of some law that can cause legal repercussions? Or is it simpy the smugglers or thieves? (should they be caught)

Thanks

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Re: Flaunting frogs of smuggled origins - E. Mysteriosus

Postby Philsuma » Thu Jul 28, 2011 9:52 am

Stu,

One of the MOST common misconceptions is that hobby frogs can at some point, be used in a re population effort. This most assuredly will never happen for a multitude of reasons.

But...

The knowledge, experience and documented husbandry information is worth it's weight in gold to ALL breeding efforts. Academics absolutely give much props to private hobbyists / breeder efforts.

Are you now rethinking, keeping Mystis's Stu ? Are you giving them up - has your opinions and thoughts changed, at all ?
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