What is "Frog Flipping" ?

General Dart Frog Questions and Comments. Care and Husbandry
BluePumilio
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Re: What is "Frog Flipping" ?

Postby BluePumilio » Fri Mar 30, 2012 7:01 pm

I guess I don't see a problem with a "flipper" if they are able to accurate represent the animal to the buyer, take concern for the animals welfare, and are open and honest to the source of the specimens. What is wrong with that? The problem is not that they are reselling the animal, but that these other concerns are not being taken care of. I'm always surprised that everyone can get so upset if someone wants to make a profit in a field they love.

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RichFrye
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Re: What is "Frog Flipping" ?

Postby RichFrye » Fri Mar 30, 2012 7:14 pm

^ No problem at all. Just rarely works out that way. Again, there are exceptions to all general rules.
I'm having a hard time seeing one post with anybody saying nobody should make money. There's nothing better than making money off something you love. How you make it counts, on many levels.
Last edited by RichFrye on Fri Mar 30, 2012 7:19 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Darts with parasites are analogous to mixed tanks, there are no known benefits to the frogs with either.


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Philsuma
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Re: What is "Frog Flipping" ?

Postby Philsuma » Fri Mar 30, 2012 7:16 pm

Resellers should:

1. Accurately represent the animal, i.e it's acquired stock and NOT produced by them.

2. Quarantine and ensure that the animal is feeding and healthy - @ 40 days is being thrown out there and I can't disagree with that amount of time.

3. Provide stellar customer service and give back to the community and hobby. WE ALL know strip-mining and take, take, take $$$ when we see it.

No one is faulting anyone who wants to earn. Profit is good and helps drive, move the hobby forward and provide more and better care.

"Flipper" is a derisive hobby term that only gets applied to the bottom feeders - the 20% or so...the worst. It's a relatively new term but I'm hoping it catches on and provides a decent amount of shame for those who are truly worthy of it's label.

Some Re-sellers can be ok.They are re-selling the animals.
Some Jobbers can be ok and we can call them Jobbers.
Some Importers can be ok and we can refer to them as importers.

Some of those are NOT ok...and we call them....'Flippers'.

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Re: What is "Frog Flipping" ?

Postby BluePumilio » Fri Mar 30, 2012 7:24 pm

Haha, well, I agree with most of what you said, expect the quarantine part. I'm ok with my suppliers not quarantining for several reasons. One, it keeps the cost lower so I pay less. Two, I would rather quarantine it myself as I feel that I'm putting my investment of time into that animal then the seller. Why? Because I feel I have more time and resources then the suppliers to ensure the best possible conditions. As long as the specimens are accurately represented to me I'm fine. I do think visually healthy and feeding is important.

As for quarantine of a frog (especially a WC frog) in a sterile environment of paper towels. I think that is absurd. That is just inviting failure. Throw them in a nice planted tank and at least a month before treating them for parasites, etc. Of course, things such as bacterial infections, fungal, etc should be treated as needed ASAP.

Ok, well, I generally agree on the "flipping" term, then.

Philsuma wrote:Resellers should:

1. Accurately represent the animal, i.e it's acquired stock and NOT produced by them.

2. Quarantine and ensure that the animal is feeding and healthy - @ 40 days is being thrown out there and I can't disagree with that amount of time.

3. Provide stellar customer service and give back to the community and hobby. WE ALL know strip-mining and take, take, take $$$ when we see it.

No one is faulting anyone who wants to earn. Profit is good and helps drive, move the hobby forward and provide more and better care.

"Flipper" is a derisive hobby term that only get applied to the bottom feeders - the 20% or so...the worst. It's a relatively new term but I'm hoping it catches on and provides a decent amount of shame for those who are truly worthy of it's label.

Re-selling can be ok.
Jobbers can be ok.
Importers can be ok.

Some of those are NOT ok...and we call them....'Flippers'.

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Philsuma
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Re: What is "Frog Flipping" ?

Postby Philsuma » Fri Mar 30, 2012 8:49 pm

yeah...I kinda just threw all that together.

Correct...Importers can get the stock right out the door to the jobbers and retailers...not a problem there.

If someone is a 'middle man' though...THEY need to take extra care.

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Re: What is "Frog Flipping" ?

Postby Philsuma » Fri Mar 30, 2012 8:59 pm

Philsuma wrote:Just had a nice long discussion with a member here a while ago....

The ARE re-sellers of frogs that are GOOD businesses and people. Not all re-sellers are 'flippers'.

The word 'Flipper' is usually a negative connotation and we should only apply to that percentage of businesses that are truly under the bar....truly bad with their practices like no quarantine and gettin' em right out the door when the come in.

Not everyone who re-sells frogs is a 'Flipper'.....we should only tag the bottom feeders with that tag. Just my .02

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Re: What is "Frog Flipping" ?

Postby jeffr » Sat Mar 31, 2012 7:19 am

I thought a jobber and a broker were the same. Someone who doesn't possess the animals but sells them and has them drop shipped from a different location

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Re: What is "Frog Flipping" ?

Postby Philsuma » Sat Mar 31, 2012 11:57 am

jeffr wrote:I thought a jobber and a broker were the same. Someone who doesn't possess the animals but sells them and has them drop shipped from a different location


Two different words but yes, it seems they are the same thing.

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Re: What is "Frog Flipping" ?

Postby RichFrye » Sat Mar 31, 2012 5:04 pm

BluePumilio wrote: ...Throw them in a nice planted tank and at least a month before treating them for parasites, etc. Of course, things such as bacterial infections, fungal, etc should be treated as needed ASAP...


What happens to the nice planted tank when the frogs come back with (or in many cases are observed with) something very bad? If totally scrapping the tank is Ok, then OK.
I think most all medical professionals would suggest testing asap (three clean fecals and other tests asap) and then go over results with a vet before a broadcast seeding of a 'clean' tank. I don't see how you came up with waiting at least month before doing any treating. I assume you are talking prophylactic treatments? Because if you test and a vet finds something bad they will most likely not want to wait at least a month to do 'something'.
ASAP scientific testing is key.

Rich
Darts with parasites are analogous to mixed tanks, there are no known benefits to the frogs with either.


If tone is more important to you than content, you are at the wrong place.

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Re: What is "Frog Flipping" ?

Postby Rusty_Shackleford » Sat Mar 31, 2012 5:53 pm

A bit off topic but I concur with RIch. I would see it as a waste of time and money to put frogs riddled with parasites in to a nicely planted and decorated viv only to have to totally tear it down and start from scratch should a fecal come out positive for parasites. Much much easier to keep them in some sort of plastic rubbermaid container with paper towels or even easily disposed of sphagnum moss while under the course of treatment. When you're done with treatment don't forget to double bag all the solid waste products and dispose of it properly.
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Re: What is "Frog Flipping" ?

Postby BluePumilio » Sat Mar 31, 2012 6:23 pm

Anyone who has dealt with large numbers of WC that are a sensitive species over a period of time will agree with me. I used to do what you say, except I started comparing it to if I did nothing. Nothing had higher survival rates! It became even higher if we treated approx a month. My vet (an awesome zoo vet, one of the best in the country in my opinion) and I came up with a theory on this. WC animals are transported quite a bit before you get them. When you get them, they have quite a bit of lactic acid in their muscles and further stressing the specimens soon after arrival puts quite a few of them over the edge. It is best to allow time for the specimens to settle before causing additional stress with handling and treatments. Exceptions to this are bacterial and fungal infections. Parasites can generally wait.

I originally came up with this idea when dealing with large fish I was supplying. They build up large amounts of lactic acid in their muscles and if not enough time is given from capture, to holding, and then to export; they did not arrive well. If I gave them some time in between, never had problems. I started to wonder if handling WC animals (already going through many hands before you get them) for treatment caused similar issues. So far, my experience shows that they do, or at least my process has let me keep acclimate many species everyone else has failed at.


RichFrye wrote:
BluePumilio wrote: ...Throw them in a nice planted tank and at least a month before treating them for parasites, etc. Of course, things such as bacterial infections, fungal, etc should be treated as needed ASAP...


What happens to the nice planted tank when the frogs come back with (or in many cases are observed with) something very bad? If totally scrapping the tank is Ok, then OK.
I think most all medical professionals would suggest testing asap (three clean fecals and other tests asap) and then go over results with a vet before a broadcast seeding of a 'clean' tank. I don't see how you came up with waiting at least month before doing any treating. I assume you are talking prophylactic treatments? Because if you test and a vet finds something bad they will most likely not want to wait at least a month to do 'something'.
ASAP scientific testing is key.

Rich

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Re: What is "Frog Flipping" ?

Postby RichFrye » Sat Mar 31, 2012 6:39 pm

BluePumilio wrote:Anyone who has dealt with large numbers of WC that are a sensitive species over a period of time will agree with me. I used to do what you say, except I started comparing it to if I did nothing. Nothing had higher survival rates! It became even higher if we treated approx a month. My vet (an awesome zoo vet, one of the best in the country in my opinion) and I came up with a theory on this. WC animals are transported quite a bit before you get them. When you get them, they have quite a bit of lactic acid in their muscles and further stressing the specimens soon after arrival puts quite a few of them over the edge. It is best to allow time for the specimens to settle before causing additional stress with handling and treatments. Exceptions to this are bacterial and fungal infections. Parasites can generally wait.

I originally came up with this idea when dealing with large fish I was supplying. They build up large amounts of lactic acid in their muscles and if not enough time is given from capture, to holding, and then to export; they did not arrive well. If I gave them some time in between, never had problems. I started to wonder if handling WC animals (already going through many hands before you get them) for treatment caused similar issues. So far, my experience shows that they do, or at least my process has let me keep acclimate many species everyone else has failed at.


RichFrye wrote:
BluePumilio wrote: ...Throw them in a nice planted tank and at least a month before treating them for parasites, etc. Of course, things such as bacterial infections, fungal, etc should be treated as needed ASAP...


What happens to the nice planted tank when the frogs come back with (or in many cases are observed with) something very bad? If totally scrapping the tank is Ok, then OK.
I think most all medical professionals would suggest testing asap (three clean fecals and other tests asap) and then go over results with a vet before a broadcast seeding of a 'clean' tank. I don't see how you came up with waiting at least month before doing any treating. I assume you are talking prophylactic treatments? Because if you test and a vet finds something bad they will most likely not want to wait at least a month to do 'something'.
ASAP scientific testing is key.

Rich


I think the main difference is "large numbers" vs. 'numbers' coming strictly for dart hobby projects.
Business vs. hobby.
Darts with parasites are analogous to mixed tanks, there are no known benefits to the frogs with either.


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RichFrye
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Re: What is "Frog Flipping" ?

Postby RichFrye » Sat Mar 31, 2012 6:48 pm

Frogs poop right away. Collect poop, get info, right away.
Darts with parasites are analogous to mixed tanks, there are no known benefits to the frogs with either.


If tone is more important to you than content, you are at the wrong place.

My new email address is rich.frye@icloud.com and new phone number is 773 577 3476

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Re: What is "Frog Flipping" ?

Postby BluePumilio » Sat Mar 31, 2012 7:03 pm

I meant the large numbers let someone witness REAL results as the best way to care for the specimens. Doing a fecal is fine, but I would wait to treat. I'm curious, just how often do you come across parasites in fecals that can't wait a few weeks for treatment? 3 treatments a month later would allow more then enough time for parasites to die in the environment and not reestablish themselves in the specimen.

RichFrye wrote:Frogs poop right away. Collect poop, get info, right away.

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Re: What is "Frog Flipping" ?

Postby RichFrye » Sat Mar 31, 2012 7:08 pm

You've not mentioned your testing advise. I think we need to be on the same page as to full quarantine procedures.
And, I do have actual (real :wink: ) hands on experience with a great number of dart frogs. In situ and other-wise...
Good points made.
Last edited by RichFrye on Sat Mar 31, 2012 7:15 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Darts with parasites are analogous to mixed tanks, there are no known benefits to the frogs with either.


If tone is more important to you than content, you are at the wrong place.

My new email address is rich.frye@icloud.com and new phone number is 773 577 3476

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Re: What is "Frog Flipping" ?

Postby BluePumilio » Sat Mar 31, 2012 7:13 pm

Well, I can tell you this has worked for much more then dart frogs. I think it is something a lot of people don't think about. Look into the lactic acid buildup.

RichFrye wrote:You've not mentioned your testing advise. I think we need to be on the same page as to full quarantine procedures.
And, I do have actual hands on experience with a great number of dart frogs. In situ and other-wise...

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Re: What is "Frog Flipping" ?

Postby RichFrye » Sat Mar 31, 2012 7:18 pm

BluePumilio wrote:Well, I can tell you this has worked for much more then dart frogs. I think it is something a lot of people don't think about. Look into the lactic acid buildup.

RichFrye wrote:You've not mentioned your testing advise. I think we need to be on the same page as to full quarantine procedures.
And, I do have actual hands on experience with a great number of dart frogs. In situ and other-wise...



...and I trust what you are putting out here, thanks. I have read up actually.
I think the whole dart quarantine issue is worth going through pertaining to all transport .
Most important being scientific testing to atttempt to understand state of health.

Rich
Darts with parasites are analogous to mixed tanks, there are no known benefits to the frogs with either.


If tone is more important to you than content, you are at the wrong place.

My new email address is rich.frye@icloud.com and new phone number is 773 577 3476

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Re: What is "Frog Flipping" ?

Postby Rusty_Shackleford » Sat Mar 31, 2012 7:27 pm

BluePumilio wrote:Well, I can tell you this has worked for much more then dart frogs. I think it is something a lot of people don't think about. Look into the lactic acid buildup.

RichFrye wrote:You've not mentioned your testing advise. I think we need to be on the same page as to full quarantine procedures.
And, I do have actual hands on experience with a great number of dart frogs. In situ and other-wise...


In your opinion is lactic acid buildup more of a problem for wc frogs vs ones domestically bred. Obviously more shipping and stress for wc ones, and because of that they usually arrive in worse shape.
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Re: What is "Frog Flipping" ?

Postby Philsuma » Sat Mar 31, 2012 7:51 pm

Stay on topic here folks....start a new thread on q-tine enclosures or lactic acid.

Keep this thread on flipping please.

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Re: What is "Frog Flipping" ?

Postby BluePumilio » Sat Mar 31, 2012 8:04 pm

In my experience, people who flip frogs usually work with WC animals, so yes, recent WC animals are what I am talking about. This issue is generally not seen in LTC animals or captive bred animals.

Rusty_Shackleford wrote:
BluePumilio wrote:Well, I can tell you this has worked for much more then dart frogs. I think it is something a lot of people don't think about. Look into the lactic acid buildup.

RichFrye wrote:You've not mentioned your testing advise. I think we need to be on the same page as to full quarantine procedures.
And, I do have actual hands on experience with a great number of dart frogs. In situ and other-wise...


In your opinion is lactic acid buildup more of a problem for wc frogs vs ones domestically bred. Obviously more shipping and stress for wc ones, and because of that they usually arrive in worse shape.


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