What is "Frog Flipping" ?

General Dart Frog Questions and Comments. Care and Husbandry
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Philsuma
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What is "Frog Flipping" ?

Postby Philsuma » Mon Apr 18, 2011 12:18 am

No...it's not a frog on a spatula.

A Frog "Flipper" is usually, but not always, a negative connotation. The Flipper is always a businessman - 100% and sometimes a Hobbyist too. I'd put the hobbyist number at @ 50%, so as you can see, the business side of this is first and foremost with a flipper. Another similar term would be "Jobber" - Someone who buys in bulk for wholesale prices and then adds his costs to the product to produce a profit margin for himself.

There are some hobbyists that live in remote areas, are "shut-ins" or otherwise must deal with a flipper or jobber to sell their produced animals and this is where it's actually ok as the flipper or jobber provides a service to reach out to this class of hobbyist.

One negative of a flipper is that they often make low ball offers to acquire stock, sometimes insulting certain hobbyists. But remember, this is a business for them, and they have to make a profit to be successful.

Another huge negative is that most Flippers will make no attempt to verify lineage or otherwise vette the breeders and the result is often the further transfer of Dart Frogs that could be crosses, have health issues or at the very least, do not provide the end buyer with any history of the animal whatsoever.

Again, not all Flippers and Jobbers are bad. Some are very ethical but some are absolutely not...

As a prospective Dart Frog purchaser, it's up to you to research your sellers and take time to do so, avoiding impulse buys.

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Re: What is "Frog Flipping" ?

Postby Philsuma » Fri Apr 29, 2011 10:26 pm

Seems like this term is getting tossed around a bit lately....mostly deserved as well.

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Re: What is "Frog Flipping" ?

Postby dtfleming » Wed May 11, 2011 10:49 am

As in all the new Suriname imports
Dendrobates, Phyllobates, Rantiomeya, Epipedobates
Don

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Re: What is "Frog Flipping" ?

Postby porkchop49 » Wed May 11, 2011 2:14 pm

dtfleming wrote:As in all the new Suriname imports



I think it goes way beyond just the Suriname imports. Except for one or two people I have not seen a whole lot of flipping for them. I am looking for extra females but it looks like I may have to wait until the hype dies down some. I hate to see what would happen if I put up one of my extra males for trade for a female.

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Re: What is "Frog Flipping" ?

Postby Philsuma » Wed May 11, 2011 4:38 pm

What will get you ABSOLVED, or not labeled a 'Flipper' is if you are selling someone else's frogs and you inform the buyer exactly where they came from and who produced them before the sale. Volunteer the info. Don't hold it back and pretend "if they don't ask...I don't hafta tell em' "

I labeled a guy as a "Flipper" who used to come to our local shows and 80-90% of the stuff on his table was from someone else and he absolutely did NOT disclose anyone connected with the frogs other than himself. This is in effect, lying or misrepresenting the animals, if you don't volunteer who you got frogs from.

Another member of a Forum was quick to try to say that I was a "Flipper" for selling some Basti's from SNDF years ago, but he was incorrect in using that term as I was announcing to everyone at the meet, that the frogs were from Marcus.

Big Diff.

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Re: What is "Frog Flipping" ?

Postby porkchop49 » Wed May 11, 2011 9:36 pm

I buy from two well known members of the frog world and only those two and I happily admit when I sell something I do not breed.
When people ask at the shows I vend, I tell them. Even when they don't ask I tell them, I prefer to be up front about it, while some people don't.

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Re: What is "Frog Flipping" ?

Postby Philsuma » Thu Jun 30, 2011 7:24 pm

Question for Stu, on the other side of the pond......how prevalent is "Flipping" over there ? Is it looked down upon ?

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Re: What is "Frog Flipping" ?

Postby JimO » Thu Jun 30, 2011 8:47 pm

Thanks Phil for the clarification. I've heard people call someone a flipper when they bought advertised groups and then sold them individually for a higher price. I was actually a bit concerned because I just went in with a guy who is tight on cash and agreed to buy two male El Dorados so that he could get a Cauchero since the seller wanted to sell all three and I happened to be in a position to pick up the frogs (he didn't want to ship). I mainly did it to help my friend out, as I wasn't planning on getting El Dorados. However, now that I have them, I plan to trade one for a female or sell one to allow me to buy a female. I didn't know if that'd be frowned upon since I know that I could probably sell one of the males for nearly double what I paid when buying all three. However, if I sold one for what I paid, it wouldn't be enough to buy a female.

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Re: What is "Frog Flipping" ?

Postby Philsuma » Thu Jun 30, 2011 9:09 pm

One or two transactions does NOT mean someone should be labeled a flipper either Jim. It's a term that usually sticks after a long time and a pattern of activity.

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What is "Frog Flipping" ?

Postby JuBJuB » Fri Jul 01, 2011 11:01 am

So based on your definition Phil, the location of an individual decides if you're ok to "flip" animals? The jobber term is more appropriate either way and in reality is no different than ANY retail outlet. Buy at wholesale and sell for a profit. In the new online world, a storefront is no longer required to be a successful and even can be a huge detriment to pricing. Just like any retailer, in the end reputation will decide whether the business makes it or not. Crazy pricing only works so long with unhealthy animals.
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Re: What is "Frog Flipping" ?

Postby Philsuma » Fri Jul 01, 2011 12:24 pm

Yeah Tim, it's a hard term to fully explain....

There's just a lot of people that are not hobbyists whatsoever and buy at wholesale prices and then sell at shows ect.

The new people think that all the frogs on the guys table are produced by him ,and that's not the case. I think the term has evolved to ty to fit that.

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What is "Frog Flipping" ?

Postby JuBJuB » Fri Jul 01, 2011 3:52 pm

Again though Phil, why do they have to be a hobbyist to be a jobber? You don't have to be a woman to open a womens clothing store and so forth. Knowledge of the product is the key and representing your animals for sale honestly goes a long way. It has nothing to do with location as to whether what you are doing is ok. As always, ask questions and if you don't hear what you want go somewhere else. It doesn't take long for the info of people getting burned to spread across this hobby so it really tends to police itself over time.
Tim

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Re: What is

Postby Tony » Fri Jul 01, 2011 4:28 pm

JuBJuB wrote:You don't have to be a woman to open a womens clothing store and so forth.


Clothes don't die or spread disease throughout your closet when they are improperly folded. :lol: There is definitey a big, messy grey area around flipping, but in the words of Justice Potter Stewart "I know it when I see it."

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What is "Frog Flipping" ?

Postby JuBJuB » Sat Jul 02, 2011 12:50 am

Tony wrote:
JuBJuB wrote:You don't have to be a woman to open a womens clothing store and so forth.


Clothes don't die or spread disease throughout your closet when they are improperly folded. :lol: There is definitey a big, messy grey area around flipping, but in the words of Justice Potter Stewart "I know it when I see it."

That's all part of the reputation Tony. If you're selling unhealthy animals word will spread pretty quickly in this hobby. Being a hobbyist isn't required for basic upkeep of darts.
Tim

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Re: What is "Frog Flipping" ?

Postby jellyman » Sat Jul 02, 2011 11:17 am

Philsuma wrote:Yeah Tim, it's a hard term to fully explain....

There's just a lot of people that are not hobbyists whatsoever and buy at wholesale prices and then sell at shows ect.

The new people think that all the frogs on the guys table are produced by him ,and that's not the case. I think the term is/has evolved to ty to fit that.


Why is the buyer always portrayed as the victim? Is the seller not capable and/or responsible for at the very least asking if the frogs were bred by the seller or if the frogs are captive bred or wild caught?

Now if the seller lies or does not offerknown information upon request then I would not consider buying from him/her.

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Re: What is "Frog Flipping" ?

Postby Philsuma » Sat Jul 02, 2011 12:34 pm

There are a lot of impulse buys done at Reptile shows where the buyer has no clue as to what WC, CB means. It's their first frog.

Bad husbandry advice such as selling 3-4 froglets in a 10 gallon usually follows.

Buyers will be buyers....we have no control over their lack of preparedness or research. We as a hobby, do have a little more control and responsibility over sellers.

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Re: What is "Frog Flipping" ?

Postby JimO » Sat Jul 02, 2011 3:15 pm

I have a friend who runs a small pet shop and is the sole survivor of Petco and Petsmart by specializing in reef tanks, with all the hard-to-find equipment and corals. He also has unusual parrots. He's interested in dart frogs, but I'm real happy that he wants to do it right. As soon as I have enough decent size auratus froglets, he wants me to set up a viv and teach him and he'll give folks who buy frogs my name to help them get started. I really got interested in this after going to the Daytona show and watching people do just what you described - "Oh! How much is that pretty blue frog?" I'd like to see a small community of dart frog keepers that know how to do it right. My buddy hopes so too so that he can sell the viv equipment, feeders, etc.

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What is "Frog Flipping" ?

Postby JuBJuB » Thu Jul 28, 2011 12:32 am

Philsuma wrote:There are a lot of impulse buys done at Reptile shows where the buyer has no clue as to what WC, CB means. It's their first frog.

Bad husbandry advice such as selling 3-4 froglets in a 10 gallon usually follows.

Buyers will be buyers....we have no control over their lack of preparedness or research. We as a hobby, do have a little more control and responsibility over sellers.

The hobby can really do little to police poor sellers. Reputation takes time to run them out of selling.

As for impulse buyers, they're a lost hope. They aren't gonna change and they tend to be the type of buyers that jobbers make a living off of. It's just how it is and it's never going to change.
Tim

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Re: What is "Frog Flipping" ?

Postby Philsuma » Thu Jul 28, 2011 9:07 am

Some excellent thoughts by Aaron and Roman, with some editing by me. I think this is a very good explanation of some issues pertaining to flipping.

Flippers buy large numbers of frogs and as such, have a much higher occurrence of contamination issues from mixing offspring, deli cup transfers, group temporary tanks, lack of proper quarantine and not sterilizing tanks, etc. There is a much greater chance of parasites from constantly bringing in new stock from who knows where, especially if the flipper houses other frogs, reptiles, etc. It's like playing the lottery. Even if you think the chances are low, the more you do it (flipping), the more chance you have for something like chytrid, lung and hookworm, coccidia and novel (new) pathogens when working with wild caught, to show up in your collection and spread. This is why I never took on other people's animals, although it was very tempting to be able to make a buck with doing minimal work.

Most flippers do not bother to evaluate the health of the animals before taking them to market. In many cases they will unpack a shipment and take it right to the show without giving the animals a chance to eat, rehydrate or settle down. We still don't know all the possible effects of low level stress caused by housing darts in little deli cups for days on end. Beginning hobbyists which are the bread and butter for flippers and they don't know the right questions to ask to make sure that the frogs they are getting are best suited for them to start with( healthy, unstressed animals, with minimal parasite loads) This is why we constantly hear horror stories of people picking up animals at shows only to have them die within days.

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Re: What is "Frog Flipping" ?

Postby Philsuma » Thu Jul 28, 2011 1:08 pm

Is "brokering" other people's frogs / frogs you don't even have in your possession, considered flipping ?

I honestly don't know...

Thoughts ?


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