"Hybridizing”,Cross-breeding and Mixing Dart Frogs

General Dart Frog Questions and Comments. Care and Husbandry
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joneill809
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Re: "Hybridizing”,Cross-breeding and Mixing Dart Frogs

Postby joneill809 » Sun Jan 04, 2015 2:05 pm

I think we'll agree to disagree. I won't attribute as a high risk level to hybrids as you do - BD/CV, legislation, inbreeding - they all rise above hybrids on my ranked list. I also don't see a practical way to "fight" hybrids; in my view the core hobby needs to adapt to it, not try and foist our ideals on a group of people that frankly don't care, and won't listen anyway. You need to pick a fight you can win. Carve out a space you can defend, educate the broader hobby on our initiatives, and share our experiences. We can be open and welcoming to entrants in the hobby that are keeping hybrids...and perhaps sway them to help maintain the wonderful assortment of locales we already have. Sharing. Tolerance. Education.

The cichlid hobby has managed to get it right - if you like colorful fish buy from the "assorted African cichlid" tank at Petco and you are good to go. If you care about locale data, go to Dave's Fish and buy stock of known origin. They have organizations that welcome all comers - hybrid keepers and those that track locales. Some people love their blood red parrots - I'd never bring one in my house, but I would not drive them out of the hobby for giving their pet a good home and enjoying the experience of keeping the animal.

I'd rather keep the forums relevant as a place to obtain knowledge about these wonderful animals and as a central hub on thought leadership for advancing husbandry methods, not focused on driving people away that don't think like me. As we share knowledge and experiences, we'll grow the core as the overall hobby (hybrids included) grows. Hybrids are here, and they have their place, we just need to manage the core we care about. Other folks have already solved this problem, that's why I keep turning back to the cichlid hobby as an analog. We can steal their ideas, and successfully manage this growing hobby and the frog lineages we care about. That's the philosophy I'm moving forward with in my investments in this hobby.
Jim from Austin please contact me if you are willing to trade offspring from:
lorenzo - schwinn line|NAIB true sips|fantastica nominant
http://www.oneillscrossing.com/dart-frogs/

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Re: "Hybridizing”,Cross-breeding and Mixing Dart Frogs

Postby Dendro_Dave » Sun Jan 04, 2015 10:54 pm

There are other problems for sure, on par if not greater then the hybrid issue... Agreed

I would argue though in the time I've been in the hobby (10 years) we've done a pretty fair job of keeping the accepted practices, the accepted practices. Sure occasionally things happen, but there is a lot of incentive to respect tbe community. Once people experience the backlash it seems most tend to stop, or at least they refrain from opening a large designer frog business and keep the frogs to themselves and if some do change hands often the people who get them are motivated enough to remove them from the breeding pop, or at least be sure to label them what they are... Risk and damage are therefore much more manageable.

I don't know much about the cichlid hobby, the people there maybe just accept the risk as the cost of doing business or whatever. I'd wager that at some point someone got a fish that wasn't what they hoped, and that someone else after that wasn't happy they couldn't be as sure what they had was actually what they wanted. And it sounds like at least a few care about species so would be mad if someone mixed and didn't know or care to tell. Being part of the very large aquarium hobby, with growth and change possibly coming so fast; they may have not ever had much of a real chance to limit it... we did, and are still trying. We definitely loose the right if we give up.

Our hobby did have a large community who came to the consensus they did not want hybrids. If the cichlid hobby never had that then no harm/no foul... Ours does, so them telling those us to mind our business and screw off for the sake of a selfish desire to have a franken frog presents a real risk to people who don't want that, and seems far more disrespectful and possibly unethical in our hobby... then in some other hobby that maybe never really cared that much.

Also maybe a mainstream/out of the closet designer frog hobby is inevitable, I don't know. But the fight isn't just about trying to stop it IMO, it is about trying to manage the degree and rate of change.

If we open the floodgates and say all is forgiven/Go for it, here is a really good chance the version of a hobby we end up with for many of us, would be considerably worse then the version we get if things are slow and cautious to evolve...

Especially when the company ushering in our brave new world it seems has been caught in a lie, introduced us to the sleazy marketing previously not generally welcome in this hobby and pushed be pseudoscience as gospel truth... all while showing very little real respect for what came before them, or what will be left after them... at the very least it seems worth fighting against they and others like them gaining a foot hold here, and being given control over the destiny of our hobby... without a fight that hopefully wins us, at least more time to adapt to the rapid change forced upon us.

The reality is the core hobbyist on the forums has a leadership role that goes beyond just promoting good husbandry and an exchange of knowledge. You can use whatever power you do have, hopefully with some respect form what came before, is now, and will be after you are gone.... Or you can watch as others take the reins from you, who may not... and won't care as long as they get their way.

People can try to insulate themselves and do all the due diligence they want, but if they loose influence/control of the greater hobby surrounding them... it is only a matter of time before they are forced to adapt to some degree or even leave or at least isolate themselves almost completely. Hands off/head in the sand approach is not terribly effective... usually ;)

There is also the argument that even if this isn't as important to you as others, if it is what you prefer, and you care about them, and what they want... still worth a fight. I'm pretty sure I'll be able to get pure line frogs for quite awhile at least, but I've come to appreciate the validity of the community's concerns and appreciate what we have and hope others get the chance to have it too that I make the best arguments I can. When I first got here like many noobs I wanted aixed tank and I probably would have created hybrids had I not bothered to inform myself and respect the community... I was spared the pain of regret for whatever damage I may have caused before I became more "enlightened", because in part In was smart, in part I was lucky, but mostly because of the culture that existed here and people making really good arguments for the way things were and keeping them that way for the most part...

Just trying to return the favor you all did me... paying it forward to those just getting here, or will show up later... so they can have a shit at what I now enjoy.
Everything I've ever wrote is/was just my opinion :P

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Re: "Hybridizing”,Cross-breeding and Mixing Dart Frogs

Postby Dendro_Dave » Sun Jan 04, 2015 11:25 pm

Uh "shit" was supposed to be "what", sorry didn't catch it within edit time limit. The fox had infiltrated the living room and was pillaging the area at will, had to take defensive action.
Everything I've ever wrote is/was just my opinion :P

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Re: "Hybridizing”,Cross-breeding and Mixing Dart Frogs

Postby guppygal » Tue Jan 06, 2015 2:27 pm

I just dropped in to say 'howdy', and lookee here - another mixed tank thread! Yes, I'm notorious for having a mixed tank, and a few froggers whom I've never met despise me for it. The tank in question is 150g and it house 1.3 Leucs, a female azureus and a male powderblue. The last two have been with me since I began the hobby in 2002, and I love seeing their funny froggy faces everyday. Aside from the fools who hybridize, the other no-no to mixed tanks is stress levels among the different flavors of frogs. Watch carefully and you'll see which frogs are freaking out and need to be moved to their own tanks.

I also have 5 other tanks - 4 with various thumbs, and one beautiful 100g tank for my galacts. Galacts do not mix well - they tend to stress quite easily. I learned that a long time ago. I've never had any offspring from the mixed tank, other than Leucs, and NOT frankenleucs, either. Maybe Fred is shooting blanks - he and Bertha are going on 13 yrs old. Bertha just isn't interested, so both my senior citizens leave the baby making to the leucs.

Yes, it can be done, but you risk a lot, especially your reputation as a frogger. Nobody wants to buy a frog from me, but I've never offered any of them for sale, except a breeding pair of auratus and their tank. It's a cool hobby for ol' folks like me. I love turning up the tv to drown out the loud chirping ;-)

It's a shame that folks pass judgement without knowing their background. I used to have a 3-legged thumb in a mixed tank (temporarily) until I was shamed into moving him into another tank. He disappeared not long after, sad to say. He was so full of himself......Phil, what kind of frog was that?

It's your hobby and your money and all the free advice and negative comments you want if you happen to admit that you have interracial frogs cohabiting. Be careful of what you say on these boards - some folks can get downright vicious.

y'all have fun now, you hear? And happy new year!!
kristi
Magnolia, TX

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Re: "Hybridizing”,Cross-breeding and Mixing Dart Frogs

Postby BcsTx » Wed Jan 07, 2015 12:03 am

guppygal wrote:I just dropped in to say 'howdy', and lookee here - another mixed tank thread! Yes, I'm notorious for having a mixed tank, and a few froggers whom I've never met despise me for it. The tank in question is 150g and it house 1.3 Leucs, a female azureus and a male powderblue. The last two have been with me since I began the hobby in 2002, and I love seeing their funny froggy faces everyday. Aside from the fools who hybridize, the other no-no to mixed tanks is stress levels among the different flavors of frogs. Watch carefully and you'll see which frogs are freaking out and need to be moved to their own tanks.

I also have 5 other tanks - 4 with various thumbs, and one beautiful 100g tank for my galacts. Galacts do not mix well - they tend to stress quite easily. I learned that a long time ago. I've never had any offspring from the mixed tank, other than Leucs, and NOT frankenleucs, either. Maybe Fred is shooting blanks - he and Bertha are going on 13 yrs old. Bertha just isn't interested, so both my senior citizens leave the baby making to the leucs.

Yes, it can be done, but you risk a lot, especially your reputation as a frogger. Nobody wants to buy a frog from me, but I've never offered any of them for sale, except a breeding pair of auratus and their tank. It's a cool hobby for ol' folks like me. I love turning up the tv to drown out the loud chirping ;-)

It's a shame that folks pass judgement without knowing their background. I used to have a 3-legged thumb in a mixed tank (temporarily) until I was shamed into moving him into another tank. He disappeared not long after, sad to say. He was so full of himself......Phil, what kind of frog was that?

It's your hobby and your money and all the free advice and negative comments you want if you happen to admit that you have interracial frogs cohabiting. Be careful of what you say on these boards - some folks can get downright vicious.

y'all have fun now, you hear? And happy new year!!
kristi
Magnolia, TX


Their are froggers that do not want to take a chance on hybrids, no ostracism just caution, as you stated PDF's can live a long time in captivity so who knows if it's a leucs cross with tinc etc. It is within your right to keep a mixed viv but those looking for frogs to buy have the same right not to buy from someone that keeps mixed vivs.
BTW this is somewhat of a small hobby, the word of mouth that you were selling frogs and keeping a mixed viv was before it was posted on a forum.
Happy New Year!
-Beth

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Re: "Hybridizing”,Cross-breeding and Mixing Dart Frogs

Postby guppygal » Wed Jan 07, 2015 9:32 am

Thanks for kind reply, Beth. I can't imagine where the 'word of mouth' came from - the only sale I made was those beautiful blue/bronze auratus (Vivarium Concepts) - it was more work than I had time. I'm thinking that folks who want to make the investment into the pdf hobby will do their research as I did and question a weird looking frog. As you know, kids will be kids and they WILL hybridize, no matter what the true froggers say. With that in mind, I had thought about taking a few of my frogs to locals schools for show n tell. But, in the back of my mind, I KNOW for a fact that any kid who can afford a few pdfs will try to hybridize, so I nixed that idea, except for a preschool class. Along the same lines, I remember meeting a guy who was so proud of his 'registered Chihuahua/Dachshund' cross. Hmm, registered as what? A mutt? The CKC will register anything furry n four-legged as long as they get their $$.

have a good one -
klb

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Re: "Hybridizing”,Cross-breeding and Mixing Dart Frogs

Postby Roadrunner » Thu Jan 15, 2015 9:54 pm

That's because you are brainwashed by Ed too. He pulls things out of context to prove what he wants to prove which mostly has nothing to do with what your point is . He also misinterprets things because he is biased and arguing from an ego standpoint. He takes that into the fight when he researches. Scientists don't research to be right. They lay out info and would lay out the problems in their theory. Ed hides info because he knows no one looks most of this stuff up instead of debating unresolved science. Maybe he gets lost in the paper and forgets the real world sometimes or dismisses too many experiences because he read a paper otherwise.
He does the same thing he yells at me about(because he takes my examples out of context). For coccidia he wouldn't specify species found in darts and tried to equate numerous attributes to coccidia found in darts from other species of coccidia that affect other frogs. And the cited paper from the vet that just died stated that the gut fauna of darts is changing each generation probably because we are dusting and giving them a different diet than they had in the wild. But Ed would rather make a joke about the oxygen bursting into flames in the corner of the room to mock me for some reason. Ed is continually contradicting himself with papers and doesn't see it because the science isn't resolved on everything yet and their are conflicts in some of the issues. He's good at his presentations but far from always right.
We have already "changed" dart frogs by changing their diet( no toxin or different from where they are found) but feeding ld50 levels of vitamins to dart frogs won't "change" them further? And he proves this by throwing up a nutritional needs paper when I didn't say it would change their nutritional needs. He misleads to win the argument and he's good at it. He reads a lot. Not really the smartest one though. I find it pathetic. If you want people to play with you, you have to play nice not just act as you are still working at a zoo and everyone here is supposed to just listen to you because you are always right. He still hasn't answered my picking for animals with adsorption issues because that and a bunch of other threads he just leaves(saying he's looking for a paper) because he has no answer or is wrong(not the same thing). And I don't need luck as I won't waste my time playing that game anymore. Completely not worth the time. What's insanity, doing the same thing expecting different results? This time I waited till he hadnt posted in 45 days. Still took my changing the darts response and posted a link to a paper and everyone thinks he was "right". If you can't see the difference between feeding a potentially potent enough to be toxic vitamin dusted onto an insect rather than regular foods metered with no potential to be toxic methods than I'd rather not be there conversing anyway. And watch the MAY and MIGHT statements he makes and try to ascertain what the actual potential may be or if it's just fearmongering. Maybe he's right 90% of the time, I dunno, I don't follow him around watching for his posts. When he's argued with me though he's been wrong a good portion of the time.

And I'd say that many of your interpretations have been wrong from teh start also. Thinking that there is some "ethical or moral superiority" in choosing which frogs are able to breed with each other. Amongst a bunch of other assumptions you make about consensus of the hobby, equating the buying of a frog in any way with rape, forcing a hybrid onto you as trickery, and thinking that the ones before us were all against hybrids, etc., etc.etc.

But hey, it's your hobby now, accept or keep out whoever you want. Yell at whomever over whatever the flavor of the month is on dusting, cleaning, breeding, whatever. I'll hang with the hybridizers. They don't seem as stuck up or judgmental over owning a few frogs in glass boxes.

Dendro_Dave wrote:
Roadrunner wrote:NO ONE IS DOING ANYTHING TO YOU WHEN THEY HYBRIDIZE. RAPE IS FORCED ON SOMEONE, NO ONE IS FORCING YOU TO BUY DART FROGS!!! You are wilfully participating in an act, owning frogs, no one is forcing you as in rape."


Skewed/Missed the point again... They aren't forcing me to buy frog, but are forcing on me more risk, that makes what I want less possible. It even has the potential to make it imosssible . But actually someone passing off a mixed frog that can't be ID'd short of a genetic test, is basically forcing a hybrid onto me by trickery. So its like I was out to get laid but someone slipped me a Micky(forcing me), and had sex with me then stole my kidney... so i was forced into the kinda sex I didn't want becoming a hybrid breeder) and lost a kidney (pure stock).

Forget the analogy for a moment, basically they are just taking advantage of us. Much of what they want to do could hurt what we have, and wanna keep having. We can only hurt their feelings but they can take pure stock and warp it into some frog we don't wanna keep, and as those frogs offspring continue through the hobby mixing with other pure frogs till there are no more, or at least considerable damage is done...we no longer even have the option of a hobby like we have....while the option always exist for them.

So yea they are doing something to me. They are making it much less certain that frogs will remain pure enough that I can still buy the frog I want, and not find out it is a hybrid when it has 4 different colors and patterns on it. They our putting the version of the hobby I find most enjoyable and the value/meaning I derive from owning "real" frogs, not mutts at risk. I'd mutts are the norm that makes getting what I want problematic at best, and potentially impossible if it gets out of hand.

You really don't see an ethical dilemma there?

They can always their way, they just have to put up with us being angry, but them getting their way puts ours at risk, and no amount of a get will ever bring those "real" frogs back, so the hobby I knew is effectively gone. Then my only choice is tknstay as part of the new designer hobby or leave. You see.no ethical problem in them forcing the risk of that onto me and others against our will?

Roadrunner wrote: now I have Ed trying to sidetrack the whole argument because he thinks that dusting and feeding dogfood to your feeders is the same thing(he should really change his statement to "that is not supported by MY INTERPRETATION of the literature, since that's really what it is). Feeding dog food will never give your frogs hypervitaminosis or overcalcification. There is a difference, just because he attaches a paper to his statement, people will believe him. Also thru long term overvitiminizing and overmineralizing you are choosing for animals with absorption issues if you are overdoing the dusting.
You can't say that choosing your animals changes them and then add a scenerio which could kill or make certain animals unhealthy and say dusting is the same thing as something that is more metered and unable to cause hypervitaminosis or overcalcification. And if animals do have different requirements and toxicity levels on vit and min then they have evolved(changed) to handle those differences. Which means other animals can if their diet changes. Shoot even cats and dogs aren't supposed to have the same food because of different requirements.
This "hobby" is more and more like a religion each day. They even spew hate to the hybridizers like a real religion. Well that's enough negativity for me for a couple months. I hate to argue but I also hate bullying and seeing the arguments put forth makes me feel compelled to reply, so I guess I just have to go. Big waste of my time, I'm arguing with people who already made up their mind before they started talking to me.
Designer plants and animals didn't ruin the hobbies, that's what people wanted in those hobbies. You think the breeders forced people to buy those hybrids? The market sets itself out. What people want is what people breed, it wouldn't work otherwise.
How am I fearmongering? Should I post Scott's NO you can't mix them in response to mixing terribilis? How about the cull them! posts when hybrids were created as the persons first frogs? I don't have time for all this. I don't understand how you can't see that rape is a TERRIBLE analogy and used to associate hybridizers with rapists. You started the negative association. And Phil's comment about the dirty kids in the sandbox. You know what this reminds me of? Segragationism. Seperate but, well not even, equal.
You guys have claimed moral superiority in the "hobby" and set forth practices when teh hobby is only anyone who owns dart frogs, hybrid or purebred. Yet you speak for everyone and your only a fraction of the "hobby". I don't like conflict, I don't like negativity, I have a hard time converting words into thoughts. When I see "it's like they are raping us" when talking about buying frogs it throws me into a "mood" I'd rather not be in. I'm trying to hit a more zen point in my life and I guess these boards just sit in opposition to that goal.


Many of your interpretations have been wrong from the start, so little of that surprises me. If I had to claim a religion, it would be Zen. But zen is about seeing yourself and other aspects of reality as they truly are, and from what I've seen in your posts you are smart but have some fundamental flaws in how you interpret info, and in the methodologies used to construct your arguments or counter arguments based on that info. These issues coupled with emotion seem to be preventing you from objectively processing data which will of course lead to faulty premises, and misunderstandings, and half truths that look like full truths, seeing what you want to see etc... etc.. and in the end arguments built on bad foundations don't endure.

I don't always agree with ED but usually i do, and he has a vast knowledge base. He is an even thinker with sound arguments backed by a ton of science. About the best I ever see happen is someone proves he isn't completely right, or there may be some wiggle room for another solution or view point... good luck with that fight, you'll need it.
"I don't want to believe, I want to know" Carl Sagan(my fav. stoner:)

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Re: "Hybridizing”,Cross-breeding and Mixing Dart Frogs

Postby Roadrunner » Mon Feb 09, 2015 12:20 pm

I found out why I am more prone to stick up for the hybridizers. Turns out I'm in the 82nd percentile of amount of Neanderthal DNA with a whopping 2.9% Neanderthal makeup. I'm an intraspecific hybrid. Can't wait to see if/how much Denisovan or Florenensis DNA I have in me.
"I don't want to believe, I want to know" Carl Sagan(my fav. stoner:)

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Re: "Hybridizing”,Cross-breeding and Mixing Dart Frogs

Postby Philsuma » Mon Feb 09, 2015 12:37 pm

Roadrunner wrote:I found out why I am more prone to stick up for the hybridizers. Turns out I'm in the 82nd percentile of amount of Neanderthal DNA with a whopping 2.9% Neanderthal makeup. I'm an intraspecific hybrid. Can't wait to see if/how much Denisovan or Florenensis DNA I have in me.


From my recent Anthropology class - 'Origin of Man' , you must have red hair, correct?

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Re: "Hybridizing”,Cross-breeding and Mixing Dart Frogs

Postby Roadrunner » Mon Feb 09, 2015 11:50 pm

Nope.
"I don't want to believe, I want to know" Carl Sagan(my fav. stoner:)

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Re: "Hybridizing”,Cross-breeding and Mixing Dart Frogs

Postby Dan1990 » Thu Apr 02, 2015 12:39 pm

Interesting read. I had not planned on mixing frogs but was still unsure what all the fuss is about. This thread has been helpful. Thank you.

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Re: "Hybridizing”,Cross-breeding and Mixing Dart Frogs

Postby Philsuma » Thu Nov 12, 2015 9:54 pm

The fuss is all about hampering or hindering the 'Good ole American' way of life. In a nutshell.

"YOU CANNOT TELL ME WHAT TO DO" !

"HOW DARE YOU INTERFERE WITH WHAT I WANT TO DO"

and I'm a Libertarian myself. I have NO problem with keeping WHATEVER you want to keep in your house, ANY way you want to do it. You want to wear a spaghetti strainer on your head - go for it. You want to glue buttons and nickels to your car - go for it.

just

Don't lie to others to increase your sales. Don't PREY upon other people. Don't LIE.

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Re: "Hybridizing”,Cross-breeding and Mixing Dart Frogs

Postby Philsuma » Tue Feb 09, 2016 1:16 pm

The above rant is more or less directed at the Tinc frog farm facility but this whole thread is full of great posts and 'WIN". Please read it in it's entirety every so many months / each year. Good stuff.

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Re: "Hybridizing”,Cross-breeding and Mixing Dart Frogs

Postby Philsuma » Tue May 24, 2016 1:14 pm

First viv ? Don't know what I mean when I say "viv" ?

Have under 1 year keeping dart frogs?

Have only kept 1-2 species of dart frogs?

The largest enclosure size you have /can get is under 100 gallons?

if you answered yes to any of these questions, please wait a while before attempting a 'mixed' dart frog tank of 2 or more different species.


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