Oophaga sylvatica "Paru" possibly hitting the shelves

General Dart Frog Questions and Comments. Care and Husbandry
Michael Lawrence
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Re: Oophaga sylvatica "Paru" possibly hitting the shelves

Postby Michael Lawrence » Sat Jan 14, 2012 10:26 pm

Im guessing there will be quite a few disapointed about not getting these. From what I know the numbers will be far more limited than many think. As far as the price go's its new here and we should expect the higher price but anyone trying to buy just 2 is wasting what could be a good breeding project. Id think purchases of atleast 4 would be the best bet on making sure everyone ends up with what they need to pair some off. And I know of a couple who are expecting atleast 5 of them.
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Re: Oophaga sylvatica "Paru" possibly hitting the shelves

Postby RichFrye » Sun Jan 15, 2012 12:53 pm

I'm having a hard time finding info on Mark's site. I went to 'conservation' and only found Peru and tiny bit of CR mentioned.
Can someone please cite the info for me so I can read up. Right now I see the truncs offered and 50% going back to Colombia, but I'd like to read up on the whole project.
Again, if these are to be bred, be it in the wild or captivity, there's going to be a loooooong wait .
When my brother and myself were starting out in darts we'd only buy if someone could offer six at once. Six seemed to be the magic number.
Darts with parasites are analogous to mixed tanks, there are no known benefits to the frogs with either.


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Re: Oophaga sylvatica "Paru" possibly hitting the shelves

Postby Stu&Shaz » Sun Jan 15, 2012 1:16 pm

RichFrye wrote:I'm having a hard time finding info on Mark's site. I went to 'conservation' and only found Peru and tiny bit of CR mentioned.
Can someone please cite the info for me so I can read up. Right now I see the truncs offered and 50% going back to Colombia, but I'd like to read up on the whole project.
Again, if these are to be bred, be it in the wild or captivity, there's going to be a loooooong wait .
When my brother and myself were starting out in darts we'd only buy if someone could offer six at once. Six seemed to be the magic number.

Hey rich,mate i'm hopeless with computers,i'm hoping this might be more than you've found already if the damn machine lets me,ha i'll give it ago if not,as always worth a shot http://english.wikiri.com.ec/productos/ ... ticus.html
:lol:

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Re: Oophaga sylvatica "Paru" possibly hitting the shelves

Postby RichFrye » Sun Jan 15, 2012 1:56 pm

Still no hard info on the project, that I can find anyway.
I do see they advertise "farm raised". So, that confirms small numbers exported. If they regulate and inspect as CR does.
I sure hope they are large when shipped...
Darts with parasites are analogous to mixed tanks, there are no known benefits to the frogs with either.


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Re: Oophaga sylvatica "Paru" possibly hitting the shelves

Postby RichFrye » Sun Jan 15, 2012 2:20 pm

It seems Ecuador is the country involved.
From their literature it seems females can take up to a year to 'settle in' and males will not only fight with other males (and they often do ) but with non-familiar females also. Females are picky about males they breed with. Temps are also a major breeding factor.
I'd be interested in who ends up working with these, when they come in.
Darts with parasites are analogous to mixed tanks, there are no known benefits to the frogs with either.


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Re: Oophaga sylvatica "Paru" possibly hitting the shelves

Postby Stu&Shaz » Sun Jan 15, 2012 4:07 pm

RichFrye wrote:It seems Ecuador is the country involved.
From their literature it seems females can take up to a year to 'settle in' and males will not only fight with other males (and they often do ) but with non-familiar females also. Females are picky about males they breed with. Temps are also a major breeding factor.
I'd be interested in who ends up working with these, when they come in.

Ahh well at least i got the link right,please ellucidate on what you mean by "temps being a major breeding factor" Rich...
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Re: Oophaga sylvatica "Paru" possibly hitting the shelves

Postby Philsuma » Sun Jan 15, 2012 4:20 pm

So to recap....

These are a "common" species right...not rare or having habitat problems ?

At 500.00 a pop....only a select few will have them, so they will def be rare in the hobby.

at that high price with such limited availability....I'd wager that, that will spur the film can smuggling crew to say "hey...the hobby community has a taste of these and demand is above supply - More people are willing to pay the big money"...

Anything with a big price tag coming in fresh / import is going excite smuggling IMO. Take that recent Lao next issue. That price came down to under $100.00 real quick. Was that MEANT to combat smuggling or was it simply because newts only command approx 1/2 of what Dart Frogs do -less hobbyists keep them, yada yada.

Some thoughts...

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Re: Oophaga sylvatica "Paru" possibly hitting the shelves

Postby RichFrye » Sun Jan 15, 2012 5:26 pm

Stu&Shaz wrote:
RichFrye wrote:It seems Ecuador is the country involved.
From their literature it seems females can take up to a year to 'settle in' and males will not only fight with other males (and they often do ) but with non-familiar females also. Females are picky about males they breed with. Temps are also a major breeding factor.
I'd be interested in who ends up working with these, when they come in.

Ahh well at least i got the link right,please ellucidate on what you mean by "temps being a major breeding factor" Rich...
Stu

'...unable to tolerate temps above 27 and @ 23 or below those temps shut down breeding... '
Darts with parasites are analogous to mixed tanks, there are no known benefits to the frogs with either.


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Re: Oophaga sylvatica "Paru" possibly hitting the shelves

Postby RichFrye » Sun Jan 15, 2012 5:30 pm

Philsuma wrote:So to recap....

These are a "common" species right...not rare or having habitat problems ?

At 500.00 a pop....only a select few will have them, so they will def be rare in the hobby.

at that high price with such limited availability....I'd wager that, that will spur the film can smuggling crew to say "hey...the hobby community has a taste of these and demand is above supply - More people are willing to pay the big money"...

Anything with a big price tag coming in fresh / import is going excite smuggling IMO. Take that recent Lao next issue. That price came down to under $100.00 real quick. Was that MEANT to combat smuggling or was it simply because newts only command approx 1/2 of what Dart Frogs do -less hobbyists keep them, yada yada.

Some thoughts...


I don't find anything stating their status other than conservation staus of "near threatened".
I'd be willing to bet the price will be higher than $500 per frog here in the U.S.
Real production of obligates is not cheap, fast or easy.
Darts with parasites are analogous to mixed tanks, there are no known benefits to the frogs with either.


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Re: Oophaga sylvatica "Paru" possibly hitting the shelves

Postby Stu&Shaz » Sun Jan 15, 2012 5:32 pm

Stu&Shaz wrote:
Philsuma wrote:So to recap....

These are a "common" species right...not rare or having habitat problems ?

At 500.00 a pop....only a select few will have them, so they will def be rare in the hobby.

at that high price with such limited availability....I'd wager that, that will spur the film can smuggling crew to say "hey...the hobby community has a taste of these and demand is above supply - More people are willing to pay the big money"...

Anything with a big price tag coming in fresh / import is going excite smuggling IMO. Take that recent Lao next issue. That price came down to under $100.00 real quick. Was that MEANT to combat smuggling or was it simply because newts only command approx 1/2 of what Dart Frogs do -less hobbyists keep them, yada yada.

Some thoughts...

Apologies for the above blank post,hit wrong button,and because i'm slow didn't have time to write before.....bla bla
Phil,these are low producers,the number coming in are easily tracked,the number they produce will be easily tracked.These frogs large Oophaga will always be smuggled because they are desired and because they fetch bucks,or £s (no implication to country).
So the very fact that these are what they are might mean that they won't be such a good target as a call to understory would verify that they are what they are meant to be and not smuggled.
A valid counter mate? or as always educate me.
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Re: Oophaga sylvatica "Paru" possibly hitting the shelves

Postby RichFrye » Sun Jan 15, 2012 5:34 pm

RichFrye wrote:
Stu&Shaz wrote:
RichFrye wrote:It seems Ecuador is the country involved.
From their literature it seems females can take up to a year to 'settle in' and males will not only fight with other males (and they often do ) but with non-familiar females also. Females are picky about males they breed with. Temps are also a major breeding factor.
I'd be interested in who ends up working with these, when they come in.

Ahh well at least i got the link right,please ellucidate on what you mean by "temps being a major breeding factor" Rich...
Stu

'...unable to tolerate temps above 27 and @ 23 or below those temps shut down breeding... '


Click "care sheet" on the Wikiri site to read the full info they have wrtten.
Darts with parasites are analogous to mixed tanks, there are no known benefits to the frogs with either.


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Re: Oophaga sylvatica "Paru" possibly hitting the shelves

Postby Stu&Shaz » Sun Jan 15, 2012 5:48 pm

Good spot Rich...instantly familiar,do you have Poison frogs:Lotters et al,see page 580 :D
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Re: Oophaga sylvatica "Paru" possibly hitting the shelves

Postby RichFrye » Sun Jan 15, 2012 6:01 pm

Stu&Shaz wrote:Good spot Rich...instantly familiar,do you have Poison frogs:Lotters et al,see page 580 :D
Stu

You got it. Borrowed from the book.
I stole my copy from Chris Miller. He's got my Christman three volume series.
Darts with parasites are analogous to mixed tanks, there are no known benefits to the frogs with either.


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Re: Oophaga sylvatica "Paru" possibly hitting the shelves

Postby Stu&Shaz » Sun Jan 15, 2012 6:16 pm

RichFrye wrote:
Stu&Shaz wrote:Good spot Rich...instantly familiar,do you have Poison frogs:Lotters et al,see page 580 :D
Stu

You got it. Borrowed from the book.
I stole my copy from Chris Miller. He's got my Christman three volume series.

I think that it makes me pretty sad in 600plus page book i read maybe 2 lines and said where's me book,,we all have our obsessions i guess....ha i like the "i stole it",damn i payed a ruddy fortune for mine,hmm best money spent so far,carrying it around has done wonders for my stamina aswell :roll:
Stu

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Re: Oophaga sylvatica "Paru" possibly hitting the shelves

Postby RichFrye » Sun Jan 15, 2012 7:31 pm

Stu&Shaz wrote:
RichFrye wrote:
Stu&Shaz wrote:Good spot Rich...instantly familiar,do you have Poison frogs:Lotters et al,see page 580 :D
Stu

You got it. Borrowed from the book.
I stole my copy from Chris Miller. He's got my Christman three volume series.

I think that it makes me pretty sad in 600plus page book i read maybe 2 lines and said where's me book,,we all have our obsessions i guess....ha i like the "i stole it",damn i payed a ruddy fortune for mine,hmm best money spent so far,carrying it around has done wonders for my stamina aswell :roll:
Stu


Bet my three volume set by Christman was more than Lotters, and weighs more :wink: :shock: ...and they are soft backs too.
Me and Chris Miller trade back and forth . A bunch of us Chicago guys do. Got some real nice camera gear from Chris Alcock here last year .
Darts with parasites are analogous to mixed tanks, there are no known benefits to the frogs with either.


If tone is more important to you than content, you are at the wrong place.

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Re: Oophaga sylvatica "Paru" possibly hitting the shelves

Postby Stu&Shaz » Mon Jan 16, 2012 12:14 pm

Ahh i'm with you now,my constant battle with letter meant i saw christmas not...,didn't think you stole,but it'll be nice when we have more contacts here,some good mates doing darts in brum but we are only just starting,so all early yet.If the books are what i think,then your bang on twice the price here and twice the weight,well all 3 anyway
Rich why don't you keep large oophaga,see how i just got back to topic...ish
Stu

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Re: Oophaga sylvatica "Paru" possibly hitting the shelves

Postby Philsuma » Thu Apr 26, 2012 2:37 pm

Thought's on these frogs commanding $500.00 each ? Some people have bought 4 ! - A house refi or equity cash out ? I hope people are not looking at this as a 'get rich on frogging" scheme.

Which leads me to my next question.

Does the price tag of $500.00 per frog, make it more attractive for smuggling other similar populations or species, knowing that demand is still outstripping supply ?

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Re: Oophaga sylvatica "Paru" possibly hitting the shelves

Postby JimO » Thu Apr 26, 2012 2:59 pm

One guy has five. I'm on Understory's wait list, but from the photos I have seen and the husbandry issues brought up by Rich, I'm having second thoughts. They are gorgeous in their own right, but most of the imported specimens that have shown up on photos here and at DB appear to me to be on the drab end of the spectrum when you look at the photos on the Wikiri site. I was hoping for more red/orange and less yellow/brown. I was willing to pay the price if the imported frogs caught my attention, but I'm not jumping up and down with excitement. I'm trying to be objective and say to myself "If someone showed you these photos and gave you a price, regardless of their relative rarity, would you buy them?" I'm not getting an immediate yes.

Philsuma wrote:Thought's on these frogs commanding $500.00 each ? Some people have bought 4 ! - A house refi or equity cash out ? I hope people are not looking at this as a 'get rich on frogging" scheme.

Which leads me to my next question.

Does the price tag of $500.00 per frog, make it more attractive for smuggling other similar populations or species, knowing that demand is still outstripping supply ?

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Re: Oophaga sylvatica "Paru" possibly hitting the shelves

Postby Rusty_Shackleford » Thu Apr 26, 2012 3:12 pm

Wow, I had no idea those frogs were that much. I'm know all those guys that got the Paru's are competant breeders. However the price tag limits the amount of competant breeders that can work with them.
Does the price make this more attractive for smugglers? Hell yes!!! It's all risk vs reward, and the reward seems high and worth the risk. Not that I'm encouraging smuggling by any means, but now I have a better idea of why it happens.

Years ago I was at a Cichlid auction and it was a typical fish auction, 8 hrs long, hundreds of bags of fish, people bidding and buying or losing. A thought occured to me, these animals have only whatever value you place upon them. Some people were willing to spend $25 on a bag of 5 fish, some people wouldn't go over $10 for the same item. It's all a matter of how bad you want them. If you think $500 per Paru is too much, don't buy them. Wait. The price will come down eventually, it's only a matter of time.
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Re: Oophaga sylvatica "Paru" possibly hitting the shelves

Postby thedude » Thu Apr 26, 2012 4:05 pm

It'll be a while for the price to come down, these guys aren't going to magically become easy to breed in any sense.

Obviously, whether you like the way they look or not is just an opinion. Personally I can tell you that so far none of my pictures show their true colors. These guys are crazy looking. And I don't just mean color wise. Their patterns are just so odd, the frogs almost seem fake. I'm a poor 21 year old college kid who just spent $1500 on 3 of them and i have almost no money now....WORTH IT :D

Also, in respects to driving smuggling. The smuggled frogs and offspring from those frogs were already going for $500 and were already being brought in ridiculous numbers. These are the first to be brought in legally and sustainably. I think we these, that the demand will be met. There are already plans to bring in more, and eventually people will get breeding.

The frogs were being smuggled before these came in, and going for the same price, so why would it drive it further? It won't.

And for the record, I didn't get these cause they are rare. I like obligates and wanted the chance to work with sylvatica. Also I'd like to help get them established, and I like what my money is going towards. They have a lot of personality and interesting behaviors actually. They are basically large pumilio.
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