Breeding Dart frogs for specific size - smaller ?

General Dart Frog Questions and Comments. Care and Husbandry
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Philsuma
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Breeding Dart frogs for specific size - smaller ?

Postby Philsuma » Sat Aug 23, 2014 12:52 pm

Thoughts on selective breeding dart frogs to produce a smaller or 'midget' frog ?

First off, in the hundreds of hobbyists that I've met in person, and adding the hundreds posting online, I've never heard this idea even broached. That alone tells me there is little to no serious interest in it.

There are admittedly a small percentage of hobbyists who espouse hybridizing and selective breeding, almost always for colour though...not size.

Munchin cats, dwarf bunnies, min pins....I guess people love them, but I can't see the 'need' or want, for them, in the dart frog hobby.

As far as DECREASING the demand for wild caught animals. Nope. It has been proven...as far as proven can go....that hybrid frogs and frogs of unknown origin INCREASE demand for wild caught frogs. Most experienced and serious hobbyists will refuse to accept a frog that is of unknown or mixed origin - hence the demand for wild caught stuff, when in doubt.

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Re: Breeding Dart frogs for specific size - smaller ?

Postby guppygal » Sat Aug 23, 2014 5:38 pm

If I understand you correctly, you would rather take animals from the wild than work with your stock to improve color, pattern, or size? I GET the part on hybrids - I've never seen one nor bred any. I was tossing out an alternative to folks who want something different w/o hybridizing to get it.

A mini terriblis might be an interesting critter.....

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Re: Breeding Dart frogs for specific size - smaller ?

Postby Philsuma » Sat Aug 23, 2014 5:59 pm

guppygal wrote:If I understand you correctly, you would rather take animals from the wild than work with your stock to improve color, pattern, or size? I GET the part on hybrids - I've never seen one nor bred any. I was tossing out an alternative to folks who want something different w/o hybridizing to get it.

A mini terriblis might be an interesting critter.....


I do not ever need to 'improve' anything with regards to the frogs physiology. Keeping them in as close to their natural state, as we find them in nature should be interesting enough. There are enough responsible breeders (thank God) that keep these animals as close to a natural representation as possible, that consumer demand is well served. NOW there will always be imports, and I'm all for tightening and improving quotas, protecting land ect but responsible wild caught harvesting of a LOT of populations of O. pumilio should be allowed to continue. Now when the majority of breeding comes from USA Frog or businesses that we have no idea where the founding stock came from and no information on lineage - I would absolutely turn to wild caught stock. With that said, let's drop the 'wild caught' red herring part of this debate and move on.

Again, you say a 'mini' mint terribilis may be cool...but you are the only person in over 10 years of frog keeping that I've ever heard say that - and I've been to hundreds of shows, meets, Reptile shows and forums. That tells me that it's not a popular idea, or wish of the vast majority of the hobby. There are 15 other husbandry issues and other projects we could debate and advance, which any headway would be groundbreaking and important, before 'mini frogs' should be considered. So when you say you are advocating an alternative to 'mixing'....I'd say again, that if it were viable and something people would be interested in, it would have been done already.

And then IF you are interested in the $$$ aspect of a mini frog....well...shame shame. lol. There is already one supra-idiot trying to make money from a designer frog 'industry' and all he is succeeding in, is "taking a massive shit in the hobby swimming pool'. He will not make money, whatsoever.

Please don't get bent over this post. I think it's spirited debate, and I'm glad to excercise it, as it's been far too 'quiet' in the hobby lately. heh

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Re: Breeding Dart frogs for specific size - smaller ?

Postby guppygal » Sat Aug 23, 2014 7:19 pm

N/p, Phil. I just threw it out there. Heck - I it never occurred to me that an Aussie would be developed as a mini, but there they are. Apples n oranges, I know.

I'm a hobbyist for the pure enjoyment of watching my frogs and making sure that they are well taken care of. I rarely sell any frogs, and when I do, it's because they are tank breeding Leucs or out of control Blue/bronze auratus. I'm not in it for the money. Everyday, I check my big tank for Fred (powderblue) and Bertha (azureus) - they were my first froglets in 2002. I'm happy to say that both are fat n sassy, and it will hurt like hell when they pass due to old age.

I can't do what I suggested, but I'm curious ~ that's all.

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Re: Breeding Dart frogs for specific size - smaller ?

Postby Roadrunner » Mon Aug 25, 2014 8:17 am

The ONLY reason this is true is because froggers want as close to wc as possible. Until this changes and people value captive bred(whether hybridized or not) over wc, the hobby will always threaten wild populations. It's the attitude of hobby that continues to want wc specimens because of the theory that inbred or hybrid frogs are subpar as pets in a glass box. With the demand for "new" frogs it seems to me people are chasing the money, not the frogs.

Philsuma wrote:Thoughts on selective breeding dart frogs to produce a smaller or 'midget' frog ?

First off, in the hundreds of hobbyists that I've met in person, and adding the hundreds posting online, I've never heard this idea even broached. That alone tells me there is little to no serious interest in it.

There are admittedly a small percentage of hobbyists who espouse hybridizing and selective breeding, almost always for colour though...not size.

Munchin cats, dwarf bunnies, min pins....I guess people love them, but I can't see the 'need' or want, for them, in the dart frog hobby.

As far as DECREASING the demand for wild caught animals. Nope. It has been proven...as far as proven can go....that hybrid frogs and frogs of unknown origin INCREASE demand for wild caught frogs. Most experienced and serious hobbyists will refuse to accept a frog that is of unknown or mixed origin - hence the demand for wild caught stuff, when in doubt.
"I don't want to believe, I want to know" Carl Sagan(my fav. stoner:)

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Re: Breeding Dart frogs for specific size - smaller ?

Postby guppygal » Mon Aug 25, 2014 10:00 am

Considering that it's a unique hobby, I have to agree with you, RR. Then, there are those of us who simply enjoy the frogs for what they are. LOVE the stereo chirping ! Eventually, the hobby will be saturated with frogs, and ethical hobbyists will want something different. There are many species that are the same frog, but different markings. Take intermedius imitators, for example. The patterns differ greatly from one frog to the next. Suppose someone sticks with a certain pattern like yellow round dots and creates a personalized line of dotted I. imitators. Buyers will 'know' that a certain breeder supplies dotted frogs....

thoughts?

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Re: Breeding Dart frogs for specific size - smaller ?

Postby joneill809 » Mon Aug 25, 2014 12:06 pm

I started to write up a response, but Chuck summed up my opinion succinctly three years ago on the thread you bumped Phil :)
viewtopic.php?f=42&t=5329&start=20#p27916

chuckpowell wrote:We don't have to do anything but what we're currently doing to breed smaller D. tinctorius. 99.9% of all captive breed tinct are smaller than their wild ancestors, some significantly smaller. I see a few animals that start to compare with the size of an average wc animal, but very very few. Better breeding towards larger animals, in my opinion, is what we should be concentrating on in the hobby.

Best,

Chuck

Personally I am more interested in understanding why most CB frogs are so much smaller than WC. What are we still missing from a husbandry perspective that is driving this?
Jim from Austin
lorenzo|highland lamasi|fantastica nominant|summersi|sylvatica diablito
http://www.oneillscrossing.com/dart-frogs/

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Philsuma
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Re: Breeding Dart frogs for specific size - smaller ?

Postby Philsuma » Mon Aug 25, 2014 12:10 pm

We are missing the bountiful nutrient richness of the jungle. All the Rapashy science in the world is never going to completely get us there. We must be content to advance the hobby and strive ahead with better diet as best we can.

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Re: Breeding Dart frogs for specific size - smaller ?

Postby guppygal » Mon Aug 25, 2014 12:23 pm

What?! No poisonous bugs?? Rats - there's goes my anti-theft system....

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Re: Breeding Dart frogs for specific size - smaller ?

Postby joneill809 » Mon Aug 25, 2014 12:29 pm

I wonder though if our tadpole husbandry is partly to blame. I pull clutches for some frogs (eg Lorenzo's) but I have been trying to let the parents tank rear tads or if I do pull I have been putting the clutches in morph out tanks and seeing who makes it. Though my yields are lower I think I get a bigger froglet this way for the most part. I need to keep a few in grow out for longer to see what the ultimate adult size is.

So is it more than just diet? Perhaps cup rearing and 90%+ yields? Marcus had said in his experience group rearing of tinc tads in larger containers yielded larger froglets for him. It's an interesting concept, but we'd have to move away from cups and experiment with different rearing methods.
Jim from Austin
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Re: Breeding Dart frogs for specific size - smaller ?

Postby guppygal » Mon Aug 25, 2014 12:58 pm

If you think about it, where do the wild frogs put their tads? It depends on the frog, right? Sometimes, a hollowed stump, others prefer broms, and I'm sure that there are quite a few that go for stagnant pools. This last group would probably have access to springtails, especially during a good rain. Mostly guessing here, but I'm sure that y'all can fill in the blanks -

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Re: Breeding Dart frogs for specific size - smaller ?

Postby Roadrunner » Tue Aug 26, 2014 9:27 am

People are missing that you shouldn't breed your frogs as soon as they are able. It sequesters nutrients towards breeding and not growing. Over the lifespan the animals put more energy into producing offspring than growing. Which further shows that people just want to breed their frogs as soon as they can. Whether for money or fun.
"I don't want to believe, I want to know" Carl Sagan(my fav. stoner:)

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Re: Breeding Dart frogs for specific size - smaller ?

Postby guppygal » Tue Aug 26, 2014 11:33 am

I'm not sure I've seen any posts on how breeding can be suppressed, other than separating the boys from the girls. From personal experience, a little lower humidity and lighter on the frogchow takes care of wanting to make tadpoles. Are there other ways?


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