Red Oophaga lemanni recently smuggled ?

General Dart Frog Questions and Comments. Care and Husbandry
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Re: Red Oophaga lemanni recently smuggled

Postby morten müller » Sun Jun 07, 2015 4:58 am

Philsuma wrote:The frog hobby in Europe has to be twice as big as the US. Entire Europe.

In response to your undocumented allegations concerning the size of the frog-communities in Europe. I can not get your numbers to match up, just as I can not make heads or tails of this supposed Lehmanni import.

In order to bring a bit of information into this discussion I have compiled a (partial) list of the larger forums in Europe:

It is obviously hard to judge as to the numbers of active frog people here. I have chosen to simply state the numbers of registered users in the forums. How many of these actually have and breed frogs I will leave to individual assesment.

This is a list of the most known and used forums in Europe.

Germany has two main forums, active since 2002, used by people from various parts of Europe, and outside of the EU.
Dendrobatenforum.de has 6049 users. Click HERE and Dendrobatenforum.info has 5793 users. Click HERE

Terraristik.com is the biggest official trade market for reptiles and amphibians in Europe. 8109 people have liked their facebook page which links directly to their home page. Click HERE. Everything offered on this page will likely appear in the Hamm Show in Germany four times a year. People from all over the world come to this event and many people from the U.S. also contribute here! The trade at Hamm is monitored closely by the German authorities.

Holland has gifkikkerportaal.nl, 7430 users since 2004. Click HERE

Austria has forum.froschportal.at, 940 users since 2009. Click HERE

Denmark has Dendromania.dk, 686 users since 2005, approx. 10% outside Denmark. Approx. 5% of all users are active posters. Approx. 10% are "inspirational" users (not actual frog owners).
(I am administrator of said forum) Click HERE

Sweden has Pilgift.se, run by the Swedish Dendrobatide Society (Svenska Dendrobatidsällskapet). 551 users since 2000. Click HERE

Dendrobates is illegal in Norway, for which reason there exists no Norwegian forums.

UK has two forums, dendroworld.co.uk, 872 users since 2008. Click HERE and poisonfrog.org, 375 users since 2013. Click HERE

I have not been able to verify any forums from France, Poland, Spain, Belgium and Switzerland. It is my impression that these countries are covered mainly by the German forums.

Obviously, some of the users on these various forums will be doubles, and a fair amount will be inactive. Judging by the limited amount of information regarding the number of active users, a safe estimate would be about 20% active users/frog keepers of total registered users.

Dartden.com has 40155 users currently, and Dendroboard.com has 21.000 total members, I think these numbers speak for themselves :wink:

Just to add a little bit of facts to this debate.

On-topic let me just say that the Lehmanni-story is now posted online in several countries/forums. All we know right now about the "Lehmanni-import" is what Ivan has told Stu. Nothing more, nothing less
Regards Morten Müller (Denmark)

I did not listen in school, so I must apologize for my Chinese English, I speak it better than I write it

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Re: Red Oophaga lemanni recently smuggled

Postby morten müller » Mon Jun 15, 2015 10:06 am

Image
Regards Morten Müller (Denmark)

I did not listen in school, so I must apologize for my Chinese English, I speak it better than I write it

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Re: Red Oophaga lemanni recently smuggled

Postby Philsuma » Mon Jun 15, 2015 12:15 pm

Lol, very nice media mash up. 'The truth is out there' but I'm afraid we are highly unlikely to see anything substantial reported on a hobby forum.

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Re: Red Oophaga lemanni recently smuggled

Postby Stu&Shaz » Tue Jun 16, 2015 5:36 pm

morten müller wrote:
Philsuma wrote:The frog hobby in Europe has to be twice as big as the US. Entire Europe.

In response to your undocumented allegations concerning the size of the frog-communities in Europe. I can not get your numbers to match up, just as I can not make heads or tails of this supposed Lehmanni import.

In order to bring a bit of information into this discussion I have compiled a (partial) list of the larger forums in Europe:

It is obviously hard to judge as to the numbers of active frog people here. I have chosen to simply state the numbers of registered users in the forums. How many of these actually have and breed frogs I will leave to individual assesment.

This is a list of the most known and used forums in Europe.

Germany has two main forums, active since 2002, used by people from various parts of Europe, and outside of the EU.
Dendrobatenforum.de has 6049 users. Click HERE and Dendrobatenforum.info has 5793 users. Click HERE

n,
Terraristik.com is the biggest official trade market for reptiles and amphibians in Europe. 8109 people have liked their facebook page which links directly to their home page. Click HERE. Everything offered on this page will likely appear in the Hamm Show in Germany four times a year. People from all over the world come to this event and many people from the U.S. also contribute here! The trade at Hamm is monitored closely by the German authorities.

Holland has gifkikkerportaal.nl, 7430 users since 2004. Click HERE

Austria has forum.froschportal.at, 940 users since 2009. Click HERE

Denmark has Dendromania.dk, 686 users since 2005, approx. 10% outside Denmark. Approx. 5% of all users are active posters. Approx. 10% are "inspirational" users (not actual frog owners).
(I am administrator of said forum) Click HERE

Sweden has Pilgift.se, run by the Swedish Dendrobatide Society (Svenska Dendrobatidsällskapet). 551 users since 2000. Click HERE

Dendrobates is illegal in Norway, for which reason there exists no Norwegian forums.

UK has two forums, dendroworld.co.uk, 872 users since 2008. Click HERE and poisonfrog.org, 375 users since 2013. Click HERE

I have not been able to verify any forums from France, Poland, Spain, Belgium and Switzerland. It is my impression that these countries are covered mainly by the German forums.

Obviously, some of the users on these various forums will be doubles, and a fair amount will be inactive. Judging by the limited amount of information regarding the number of active users, a safe estimate would be about 20% active users/frog keepers of total registered users.

Dartden.com has 40155 users currently, and Dendroboard.com has 21.000 total members, I think these numbers speak for themselves :wink:

Just to add a little bit of facts to this debate.

On-topic let me just say that the Lehmanni-story is now posted online in several countries/forums. All we know right now about the "Lehmanni-import" is what Ivan has told Stu. Nothing more, nothing less


Morten,I still know nothing more,but have to say I think your posts on numbers are logical. I'm sorry I haven't been responding much,I do have reasons utterly unrelated to frogs. I don't know whether my actions,(ie telling everyone what I was told) have caused this to go deep underground,I simply can't furnish facts like I would like to. By god I wish I could,but I can't give the answers that we need. I really hoped the answers would surface with a little time. Somehow now I feel that time span might be extended, somewhat,or simply we will never know,what exactly happened. The only thing on my mind at the time,was outrage that my friend's work had been completely undermined,plus the consequences of loss of those frogs from a wild population ,which I care so much about.

Honestly I have asked my self many times if the time spent making those posts and showing my concerns was really a good thing,nothing has been completely substantiated at this time,you had heard a rumour before I told everyone,others had too it seems. But I guess at the very least more folks have thought on the consequences of illegal trafficking in darts,that can only be for the good of both us the hobby and the wild frogs. What I can say is I just can't see Ivan making this up,he has nothing to gain from it.

Logically if I was the guy that smuggled those frogs and some guy shouted about it all over the web,then I'd be covering up my dealings as quickly as humanly possible anyone with half a brain would!! But if I had said nothing what would have been the senario then? That is the question that made me post on as many places as I could manage. I felt that nothing would change otherwise and frankly it still might not . But in this particular case ownership of a red lehmanni will not come without questions in EU at least and a breeder of this particular frog,will either be able to show a back story or simply he won't.

Morten can I ask you a serious question,I'm sure you know more about large oophaga and who keeps them in EU (not uk) than I!! Do you know of one single breeder of this frog in the EU that had shown his success at breeding and keeping,before I posted about this incident? I know they were imported at some stage,way back,there are pictures floating about. But if someone had of kept that old line going then surely that achievement would be out there. I do know of a breeder of a different colour,but I've never seen a pic anywhere of red lehmanni bred in captivity in EU.

Thanks for your thoughts on this

Stu

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Re: Red Oophaga lemanni recently smuggled

Postby morten müller » Mon Jul 20, 2015 3:32 am

Hi Stu

Sorry about the long absence, family matters have been taking up my time. As we all know, there are things in life except frogs to attend to.

I have no doubts as to your sincere and honest intentions in writing your ”Red Oophaga lemanni recentley smuggled” post. Any increased attention on smuggling is for the better, and I guess Ivan and Tesoros de Colombia benefits from that too. As to the actual impact on smuggling I am doubtful.

I very much appreciate you enlightening all of us as the obviously serious "frogger" you are. Thanks. I personally would hate to see someone like you taken hostage in this unsubstantiated Red Lehmanni business.

I can now confirm from my connections here that the Lehmanni story hit Germany at the time of your posts. No one has to my knowledge been able to verify Ivan's story.

None of my sources have been able to verify any current Lehmanni-breedings in Europe. However, a few breeders from Germany still carry some Lehmanni-blood in their frog-collection, dating back to old 90's imports.

A lot of serious people in the hobby are still doubtful regarding this alleged Lehmanni import.
The conflicting rumours and the utter lack of verification makes it hard for any one within our hobby including myself to believe that this, however sad, has actually taken place.

I agree with Phil that we are probably not likely ever to be fully informed on this matter of the Red Lehmanni.

Regards, Morten Müller (Denmark)
Regards Morten Müller (Denmark)

I did not listen in school, so I must apologize for my Chinese English, I speak it better than I write it

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Re: Red Oophaga lemanni recently smuggled

Postby Philsuma » Mon Jul 20, 2015 12:18 pm

The only thing I can say without reservation is that Andreas looked me straight in the eyes and said that Smugglers have removed entire populations of red lehmani. When pressed further for a country or hobby demographic responsible, he quickly said 'Germany'.

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Re: Red Oophaga lemanni recently smuggled

Postby morten müller » Mon Jul 20, 2015 2:42 pm

Philsuma wrote:The only thing I can say without reservation is that Andreas looked me straight in the eyes and said that Smugglers have removed entire populations of red lehmani. When pressed further for a country or hobby demographic responsible, he quickly said 'Germany'.


Reliable source told me the same story months ago phil. But they all changed their statements again!.

Have you spoken with Andreas since he told you the story?.
Regards Morten Müller (Denmark)

I did not listen in school, so I must apologize for my Chinese English, I speak it better than I write it

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Re: Red Oophaga lemanni recently smuggled

Postby Philsuma » Mon Jul 20, 2015 3:04 pm

No, I have not spoken to Andreas since a few years ago.

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Re: Red Oophaga lemanni recently smuggled

Postby Philsuma » Mon Jul 27, 2015 8:29 pm

And NOW the legal ones are getting ready to come in. Will they 'wash' the stuff that's already here? Yep.

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Re: Red Oophaga lemanni recently smuggled

Postby morten müller » Tue Jul 28, 2015 4:44 am

Depends on the illegal import real occurred?!. but yes a lawful import wash the dirty imports, it is logic.

Just for info. No legal imports of any lemanni variants are announced here in Europe yet, but I will inform the forums if I hear anything else.
Regards Morten Müller (Denmark)

I did not listen in school, so I must apologize for my Chinese English, I speak it better than I write it

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Re: Red Oophaga lemanni recently smuggled

Postby scott_r » Mon Sep 07, 2015 5:14 am

Carry on Wayward Son--

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Re: Red Oophaga lemanni recently smuggled

Postby Philsuma » Mon Sep 07, 2015 9:29 am

Post some facts if ya got em, instead of snark.

an that red colour in the pic. Its either photoshopped or some serious naturose.

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Re: Red Oophaga lemanni recently smuggled

Postby scott_r » Mon Sep 07, 2015 12:37 pm

What band sung that?
Rumor has it there are two people that acquired new bloodlines.

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Re: Red Oophaga lemanni recently smuggled

Postby Philsuma » Mon Sep 07, 2015 1:45 pm

scott_r wrote:What band sung that?
Rumor has it there are two people that acquired new bloodlines


ok...now I get it. Kansas AND California.Oh well, there will always be 'washing'. The initial effort that Ivan took to photograph and record the founding line stock was excellent and ground-breaking but is EVERYONE gonna record their F1's ect ? Doubtful. They SHOULD though.

If I was Josh S., I'd start making up a certificate for those yellows. Certs and pics. I'd do it.

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Re: Red Oophaga lemanni recently smuggled

Postby Philsuma » Mon Sep 07, 2015 4:28 pm

Here's an interesting observation of late.

There's been about a dozen new accounts opened here on DD this week, coinciding with the lehmanni import and...

The accounts are Dutch, German and at least one other EU nation.

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Re: Red Oophaga lemanni recently smuggled

Postby scott_r » Mon Sep 07, 2015 5:30 pm

Is Belgium considered Dutch? That would explain alot.

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Re: Red Oophaga lemanni recently smuggled

Postby Stu&Shaz » Mon Sep 14, 2015 5:48 pm

Morten a public apology, for my lack of replies,it's just a little easier to tell you now what I told Phil privately when he asked me why I suddenly almost disappeared after making my posts about the reds. Yes you are right they were made with all honesty and sincerity. If I am rediculed or thought ill of I care not,I love these frogs and I admire Ivan on a huge level,I know why I did what I did,and it was terribly hard for me I might add. Terribly hard, I was trying to find him some sponsorship desparately so,all naturally done in my own little way nowt grand just the best I could give.


Simply put I have been a care worker looking after one guy (with an aquired brain injury plus chronic kidney failure) six days a week for 9 years. As this incident came to my attention I went to work and found him dead ,I was his all Morten his family not so much. I would rather not say any details on a public forum,but suffice to say the grief and my complete loss of livelyhood hampered my ability to reply like I would normally. I was, and still am haunted by this incident. Even today as we went to the shops I stopped and looked back for my mate who was always slow before crossing the road,to make sure he was ok.

Morten, regarding the frogs, I know nothing more about what happened with all my heart I hope I was wrong and it never happened .If that leaves me in lesser standing in some peoples eyes that's ok. I'm not writing this private stuff so folks feel sorry for me,just so you know why I suddenly stopped posting it was simply too much, for me to bare. I very nearly did this privately as I'm SO sorry I didn't reply. But I'm a simple honest man,not clever not a great frogger,but I have nothing to hide.
so I felt I should make a statement of what happened in the open. But there is more.

Ivan Lozano Ortega is a complete inspiration to me. Recnetly, I have been told that some think this was a stunt to make his business more viable. This is utterly untrue. I told folks about this Ivan wanted to talk about sponsorship with me,but I hurt for him I could feel his sadness and I reacted to that. Maybe I was misguided,in posting I don't know ,but it is also very important to me that folks understand Ivan only mentioned his sadness at this event happening simply, one line. It was me who told folks and was outraged .

Maybe one day we will know the truth of all this,but I seriously want this rumour about Ivan putting this out there as a stunt stopped right here and now!! If someone has something to say lay it at my door ,sure I'm the soft old sod and this is not easy,but I'll be damned if something I have done in anyway reflects on an outstanding individual whose heart is utterly with trying to do his complete best to conserve his native frogs.

Thanks for the words Morten,whether or not anyone believes all this is their problem it is simply and utterly the truth

I'm sorry for being so long in replying so sorry,


best always kiddo

Stu

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Re: Red Oophaga lemanni recently smuggled ?

Postby morten müller » Tue Sep 15, 2015 8:05 am

Hello Stu

Thanks for your explanation.

I am very sorry for your friend. I think that everyone understands why your focus not relate to this post at the moment, so your excuse is unfounded Stu!

I do not have much to say here, but I can add that I participated in the Hamm fair in germany last Saturday. There was no Red Lehmenni business inside or outside the fair, and nobody have seen or heard of any people who have been offered disser frogs there.
Regards Morten Müller (Denmark)

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Re: Red Oophaga lemanni recently smuggled ?

Postby Stu&Shaz » Tue Sep 15, 2015 11:37 am

Morten thanks for the reply,and the wishes for my mate,44 is too young to leave this earth,but his last months were good,and it's likely he was here longer than he would have been because of my efforts for him,so the Dr's tell me anyway.

It's wonderful for me that none of the red lehmanni appeared at Hamm,that's fantastic news. One day we all might know what happened. But, until then all we can do is hope that Tesoros can continue their wonderful work and that with time Ivan's large oophaga will make their way to our side of the world. It will be wonderful to see success over here,like our American friends are showing now with the recent import!!


take care Morten and again sorry for not replying sooner

Stu


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