Data collection = better frog keeping

General Dart Frog Questions and Comments. Care and Husbandry
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Armson
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Data collection = better frog keeping

Postby Armson » Wed Feb 03, 2016 10:41 am

I have been kinda bummed about the lack of data collection in the hobby.
Is there anyone out there that is collecting data about their collection or about the parameters in the frogs native environment?



-Byron

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Philsuma
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Re: Data collection = better frog keeping

Postby Philsuma » Wed Feb 03, 2016 11:38 am

Lots of other stuff to be bummed about, if I may add to the 'negative nelly-ness'. 1% of the hobby aids, adds or helps the forums. It's all take, take take. Very few people care.

You're going to hafta scour the 'Academic' Community, I fear.

Join 'Field herp forum.com' and search for C.R and Panama threads there. About 30-40% of the people on that forum are academically oriented and you'll have a TON of a better chance at data collection info there. Hate ta say it, but ya better give up on trying to get 'data' from us Hobbyists.

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Armson
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Re: Data collection = better frog keeping

Postby Armson » Wed Feb 03, 2016 1:45 pm

Philsuma wrote:Lots of other stuff to be bummed about, if I may add to the 'negative nelly-ness'. 1% of the hobby aids, adds or helps the forums. It's all take, take take. Very few people care.

You're going to hafta scour the 'Academic' Community, I fear.

Join 'Field herp forum.com' and search for C.R and Panama threads there. About 30-40% of the people on that forum are academically oriented and you'll have a TON of a better chance at data collection info there. Hate ta say it, but ya better give up on trying to get 'data' from us Hobbyists.


I will give it a look, yeah I think I may be long over due for some input....

-Byron

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Re: Data collection = better frog keeping

Postby joneill809 » Wed Feb 03, 2016 2:17 pm

I did two projects, one on Sipaliwini and another on Sao Lourenco. I used the NOAA historical database of weather stations around the world to pull my data. This is a link to a Sao Lourenco weather station, but you can use the NOAA search to locate other stations of interest:
http://www.ncdc.noaa.gov/homr/#ncdcstni ... 0&tab=MSHR

You have the ability to request an extract of data as far back as you want - I just look at the station history and ask for all the data it has collected. It's definitely interesting to pull the regional data, but the caveat is these are stations that just provide regional data, providing rough guidance on general highs and lows of Temp and RH. There's lots of other data from some of these stations including cloud cover which was interesting to see. Some stations are pretty sparse with gaps in recordings. From there it is a somewhat annoying data clean up effort, then plotting.

You can get some useful seasonal data. The average RH stats in the plot below are what convinced me that many of our sealed vivs are pretty far from "normal" for these animals:

Image
Jim from Austin please contact me if you are willing to trade offspring from:
lorenzo - schwinn line|NAIB true sips|fantastica nominant
http://www.oneillscrossing.com/dart-frogs/

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Re: Data collection = better frog keeping

Postby Philsuma » Wed Feb 03, 2016 2:20 pm

...and then, thank god for Jim!

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Re: Data collection = better frog keeping

Postby Armson » Wed Feb 03, 2016 3:23 pm

Jim,
Welcome to the quest......

Noaa is great for data however I usually pull my data from weather underground.

but I am actually looking for even detailed information.

Such as barometric pressure and frequency of calling. I am going to do a write up and post it sometime this evening.


-Byron

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Re: Data collection = better frog keeping

Postby Armson » Wed Feb 03, 2016 3:41 pm

OMG Jim I just went through your site

... .Are you a 'nix guy?

We are going to have a lot of fun.


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Re: Data collection = better frog keeping

Postby joneill809 » Wed Feb 03, 2016 4:14 pm

Heh I know enough to be dangerous and get at the data I am interested in...Google is my friend when it comes to linux/hadoop/pig/spark. Just stood up that home brew hadoop cluster on centos this fall. Still trying to master the quirks of hbase :).

I focus on high scale workload analytics for my day job...not many folks know or care about what I do :lol:. "Words, words, words, words...blah blah ok ok ok...just make it go faster."
Jim from Austin please contact me if you are willing to trade offspring from:
lorenzo - schwinn line|NAIB true sips|fantastica nominant
http://www.oneillscrossing.com/dart-frogs/

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Re: Data collection = better frog keeping

Postby Armson » Thu Feb 04, 2016 7:43 am

OK let me back up a bit and just set the stage and then explain what I am looking for.... The job is starting to spill over into my hobby.

I am looking detailed information regarding our collections.
Lets use my new best friend, Jim as our example.

Jim has done an amazing job on his site tracking humidity and temperatures in his frog room. He also went as far as pulling data from their natural habitat. This is a great start but I want to dig deeper.

I am looking for information regarding Barometric pressure having an impact on breeding behavior.
Most of us up here in the states have witnessed a low pressure system right before thunderstorm, has anyone noticed that native north american frogs begin to call when the low pressure system rolls through?

I know in the tropics the pressure swings aren't as drastic, but what if I told you that some of these harder to breed species increase breeding activity right before a storm?

Back to Jim.

Jim's viv parameters are lock step with the natural habitat for his highland lamasi/sirensis/whatever. We know they are notoriously difficultish to breed. but according to the data that we are collecting we learn that the Lamasi males become stimulated right before a low pressure swing and then begin to call as the rain starts. Well now Jim can simply watch is local weather and manually mist his frogs right before a thunderstorm. There by increasing his frogs breeding.....

I hope everyone understands what I am trying to get at. Lets discuss this then we can move on to more interesting topics like chemical composition of bromiliad water and tropical rain water.

Just got to work and I am scrambling to do 5 different things as per the norm. ignore the grammatical/spelling errors.



-Byron

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Re: Data collection = better frog keeping

Postby Philsuma » Thu Feb 04, 2016 11:39 am

Kinda believe you are overthinking all this habitat data, B. BUT any fight is a good fight, with regards to bettering the hobby, I would agree.

I can tell you are STILL a reefer at heart - all these parameters ect. Heh

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Re: Data collection = better frog keeping

Postby Armson » Thu Feb 04, 2016 3:36 pm

I am sure the guy that figured out the Vit A issue with obligates was laughed at.....

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Re: Data collection = better frog keeping

Postby Philsuma » Thu Feb 04, 2016 3:39 pm

Armson wrote:I am sure the guy that figured out the Vit A issue with obligates was laughed at.....


Nutrition advances are a 'lil' more important that perfection of Temps and Humidity. Come on now...

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Re: Data collection = better frog keeping

Postby Armson » Thu Feb 04, 2016 4:15 pm

Oh it's gonna be like that?

When you coming back up here. This sounds like a beer discussion.

-Byron

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Re: Data collection = better frog keeping

Postby Philsuma » Fri Feb 05, 2016 12:59 pm

I'm back up, heh.

What WE need to do is 'book' a stay at Brian's casa de huesped in Siquirres....and soon! If Craig gets laid off again, he'll have plenty of time on his hands.

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Armson
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Re: Data collection = better frog keeping

Postby Armson » Fri Feb 05, 2016 4:08 pm

Don't joke.

I will hold you to it.

But I would prefer Bocas ... cuz I get my reef on.

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Re: Data collection = better frog keeping

Postby Sherman » Mon Feb 08, 2016 9:58 am

I'm not sure how to "like" or "thank" anymore but yes, those things, for this thread.

I like to imagine caging solutions in the (near) future that are able to combine historical locality data and current weather conditions to reasonably emulate "natural" weather events. The historical data can tell the system what average duration, temperatures, lighting and rainfall occur during a weather event in a given natural habitat and local weather conditions can trigger the pre-programmed sequence of events. Heaters, fans, misting systems, chillers and advanced LED lighting make all of this possible.

I do not think it would be hard to convince Brian set up a weather data collection station of our design at CRARC. I have found that conditions vary quite dramatically on top of and within leaf litter during mid day. Understanding sensor placement for any data source would be critical to understanding the information. Multiple sensors, placed at different spots with the same location will allow us to begin to understand and fine tune our systems.

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Re: Data collection = better frog keeping

Postby Armson » Tue Feb 09, 2016 8:01 am

Sherman wrote:I'm not sure how to "like" or "thank" anymore but yes, those things, for this thread.

I like to imagine caging solutions in the (near) future that are able to combine historical locality data and current weather conditions to reasonably emulate "natural" weather events. The historical data can tell the system what average duration, temperatures, lighting and rainfall occur during a weather event in a given natural habitat and local weather conditions can trigger the pre-programmed sequence of events. Heaters, fans, misting systems, chillers and advanced LED lighting make all of this possible.

I do not think it would be hard to convince Brian set up a weather data collection station of our design at CRARC. I have found that conditions vary quite dramatically on top of and within leaf litter during mid day. Understanding sensor placement for any data source would be critical to understanding the information. Multiple sensors, placed at different spots with the same location will allow us to begin to understand and fine tune our systems.


Just like the Reef community....


I just really want to build the most accurate adaptation to the frog's natural environment. I would also like to give something back, I don't want to just be a consumer.

Phil, You have any pull on field herp forums? They haven't answered me back.


-Byron

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Re: Data collection = better frog keeping

Postby Philsuma » Tue Feb 09, 2016 10:30 am

Field herp forum is admittedly a 'lil' tricky. Sometimes people help really quickly and sometimes not. I looked for your thread and didn't see it.

I still think you are over-thinking a lot of the fine data, heck, most of these frogs breed either like rats, or by accident. Breeding and egg laying is way down my personal list in terms of importance because it is so easy to accomplish. Now raising the froglets to adulthood and F1 ect...now THAT is certainly worthy of study. Nutrition and diet would be #1 to study for me, followed closely by optimal enclosure size and perhaps animal/sex ratio.

Some thoughts.

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Re: Data collection = better frog keeping

Postby Armson » Tue Feb 09, 2016 3:36 pm

Philsuma wrote:Field herp forum is admittedly a 'lil' tricky. Sometimes people help really quickly and sometimes not. I looked for your thread and didn't see it.

I still think you are over-thinking a lot of the fine data, heck, most of these frogs breed either like rats, or by accident. Breeding and egg laying is way down my personal list in terms of importance because it is so easy to accomplish. Now raising the froglets to adulthood and F1 ect...now THAT is certainly worthy of study. Nutrition and diet would be #1 to study for me, followed closely by optimal enclosure size and perhaps animal/sex ratio.

Some thoughts.


I want to eliminate "by accident", and I am talking about all aspects, This is just where I am starting. Nutrition and diet are on my list of things to exam. if you go back, I was asking questions about nutrition a few years ago.

I haven't gotten my forum access approved yet. I sent the reply email and haven't heard back.


-Byron

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Re: Data collection = better frog keeping

Postby Philsuma » Tue Feb 09, 2016 3:57 pm

Let me clarify. Most dart frogs will breed even for new hobbyists that don't know a thing about frogs and keep them in a plastic tote. The newbies know nothing of husbandry, yet they breed for them easily - hence by "accident" on the KEEPERS part.

No worries bro, I get it. You are passionate about yer datas. I'll help if I can.


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