Some Ranavirus articles & testing

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BluePumilio
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Some Ranavirus articles & testing

Postby BluePumilio » Sun May 06, 2012 12:25 pm

I thought this might be a good place to post some Ranavirus articles and helpful links:

A good paper detailing Amphibian Ranavirus

http://www.int-res.com/articles/dao_oa/d087p243.pdf

Places that test for Ranavirus:
http://vetdna.com/
http://zoologix.com/


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Re: Some Ranavirus articles & testing

Postby Philsuma » Sun May 06, 2012 1:04 pm

How much does testing cost ?..anyone ?

http://www.vetdna.com/index.html

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Re: Some Ranavirus articles & testing

Postby frogfreak » Sun May 06, 2012 1:15 pm

$20/swab, Phil.

Cheap insurance imo.
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Re: Some Ranavirus articles & testing

Postby Philsuma » Sun May 06, 2012 1:20 pm

So that's basically $20.00 for EACH frog ?

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Re: Some Ranavirus articles & testing

Postby BluePumilio » Sun May 06, 2012 1:28 pm

You could request multiple swabs be tested together for a lower cost instead of individually. Every frog does not need to be tested. You can take a representative sample.

Philsuma wrote:So that's basically $20.00 for EACH frog ?

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Re: Some Ranavirus articles & testing

Postby frogfreak » Sun May 06, 2012 1:29 pm

For each viv. If one frog has it they all have it.
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Re: Some Ranavirus articles & testing

Postby Philsuma » Sun May 06, 2012 1:51 pm

I'm pretty sure it needs to be...each frog....to be effective.

Am I missing something, procedurally ?

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Re: Some Ranavirus articles & testing

Postby BluePumilio » Sun May 06, 2012 2:03 pm

Because the PCR is able to amplify the virus DNA, only a very small amount of virus needs to be present to show a positive test. Because of it's ease in spreading, a representative sample should be efficient to show that the virus is there. It will not harm doing tests for each frog, thought, for costs purposes, it may be better to swab all/several frogs from a shipment and have them run a single test on all the swabs.

Philsuma wrote:I'm pretty sure it needs to be...each frog....to be effective.

Am I missing something, procedurally ?

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Re: Some Ranavirus articles & testing

Postby Armson » Sun May 06, 2012 10:01 pm

Guys this starting to get overwhelming for this newbie frogger. So it's late and I am tired so to make sure I have this right....

Should I now add swabbing to my list of things to do for QT or is this really something that is for WC frogs?

If this is something I need to be concerned with how do I go about swabbing a frog? Is this anything like all the hundreds of paternity tests I have had to take over the years where I swab the inside of my mouth?

How does one swab the frogs mouth?


-Byron

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Re: Some Ranavirus articles & testing

Postby Philsuma » Sun May 06, 2012 10:08 pm

Hundreds ? You ARE a frog !

Looks like it may just be:

1. One sample frog swab from each viv - the virus spreads rapidly, so an entire viv of multiple frogs is either all good or all infected.

2. I think the swab is done on the dorsal (back) of the frog - refer to your particular testing company's SOP on how and what they want.

3.Def test all recent WC stuff....the CB stuff, would be at your discretion.

Overall, this is nothing new...Chytrid, Ranavirus,anygivendisease, Froggy Aids....it's all been here before. Don't panic. Remain calm.

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Re: Some Ranavirus articles & testing

Postby Armson » Sun May 06, 2012 10:18 pm

Armson wrote: Is this anything like all the hundreds of paternity tests I have had to take over the years where I swab the inside of my mouth?

-Byron



Ok this might have been a little misleading.... It's really just hundreds of times for the same kid. All though my wife assures me it is mine, I still think she is lying. So I keep getting the test done.

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Re: Some Ranavirus articles & testing

Postby frogfreak » Tue May 08, 2012 11:33 am

I have 20+ infected frogs in my collection. They were from a US import from last November and I'm 99.9% sure of that. They are in isolation two floors from the rest of my frogs. Separate shoes are used to enter the room and disposable gloves are used. Separate feeders are used as well. Nothing comes out of the room that isn't sterilized or double bagged. When I first discovered that I have the virus in my collection I was in total panic mode and was prepared to euthanize all the frogs. After multiple conversations with Ed and people from all across North America and the UK I decided to keep them. I've read so much about this virus it makes my head hurt! Bottom line is in my case. The frogs are doing fine. I see no ill effects from the virus, so far. The strain has not been identified as of yet. I have two pairs breeding and they are not passing the virus onto the offspring. These are all Tincs and Auratus. I'm not where I want to be yet. The goal is do set up and house each frog individually in 10g tanks except for two breeding pairs and study them long term with the help of others.

Best
Glenn

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Re: Some Ranavirus articles & testing

Postby BluePumilio » Tue May 08, 2012 12:37 pm

If you have a good vet and frogs start to show symptoms of the infection in the future, you may want to look into anti-viral medications in the future. I have a feeling a large percentage of frogs in the hobby may have one or more strains, which may or may not be harmful under none stressful conditions. In some ways, people can think of it like Herpes, except that there are strains which QUICKLY become deadly.

I wonder about the transmission of the virus to offspring of obligates? I wonder if anti-virals can suppress it to prevent infection in these cases?

Of course, there is the aspect, too, that exposure of non-lethal Rana-virus strains could protect against other strains of RV. I don't think there is any research to support this, though. I guess it would depend on how the immune system ID's and attacks it if non-lethal exposure could "vaccinate" against more lethal serotypes.

frogfreak wrote:I have 20+ infected frogs in my collection. They were from a US import from last November and I'm 99.9% sure of that. They are in isolation two floors from the rest of my frogs. Separate shoes are used to enter the room and disposable gloves are used. Separate feeders are used as well. Nothing comes out of the room that isn't sterilized or double bagged. When I first discovered that I have the virus in my collection I was in total panic mode and was prepared to euthanize all the frogs. After multiple conversations with Ed and people from all across North America and the UK I decided to keep them. I've read so much about this virus it makes my head hurt! Bottom line is in my case. The frogs are doing fine. I see no ill effects from the virus, so far. The strain has not been identified as of yet. I have two pairs breeding and they are not passing the virus onto the offspring. These are all Tincs and Auratus. I'm not where I want to be yet. The goal is do set up and house each frog individually in 10g tanks except for two breeding pairs and study them long term with the help of others.

Best

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Re: Some Ranavirus articles & testing

Postby RichFrye » Tue May 08, 2012 12:47 pm

There's also the chance that if the frogs have one strain and their bodies have fought off that strain successfully , the next strain could wipe them out easier since the body may think it's fighting the first strain and not the second.
Think Dengue .
BluePumilio wrote:...
Of course, there is the aspect, too, that exposure of non-lethal Rana-virus strains could protect against other strains of RV. I don't think there is any research to support this, though. I guess it would depend on how the immune system ID's and attacks it if non-lethal exposure could "vaccinate" against more lethal serotypes.

frogfreak wrote:I have 20+ infected frogs in my collection. They were from a US import from last November and I'm 99.9% sure of that. They are in isolation two floors from the rest of my frogs. Separate shoes are used to enter the room and disposable gloves are used. Separate feeders are used as well. Nothing comes out of the room that isn't sterilized or double bagged. When I first discovered that I have the virus in my collection I was in total panic mode and was prepared to euthanize all the frogs. After multiple conversations with Ed and people from all across North America and the UK I decided to keep them. I've read so much about this virus it makes my head hurt! Bottom line is in my case. The frogs are doing fine. I see no ill effects from the virus, so far. The strain has not been identified as of yet. I have two pairs breeding and they are not passing the virus onto the offspring. These are all Tincs and Auratus. I'm not where I want to be yet. The goal is do set up and house each frog individually in 10g tanks except for two breeding pairs and study them long term with the help of others.

Best
Darts with parasites are analogous to mixed tanks, there are no known benefits to the frogs with either.


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Re: Some Ranavirus articles & testing

Postby BluePumilio » Tue May 08, 2012 12:52 pm

It could, we really have NO idea and that's the unsettling part. I guess I like to just think, optimistically. Like how Cowpox exposure protected against smallpox. Heck, the virus's could also combine, forming new strains, even worse then the previous. So it is best to prevent the virus from becoming established in our hobby to prevent transmission, especially because it could cause problems with native wildlife as well. All that infected water your flushing is going somewhere.

RichFrye wrote:There's also the chance that if the frogs have one strain and their bodies have fought off that strain successfully , the next strain could wipe them out easier since the body may think it's fighting the first strain and not the second.
Think Dengue .
BluePumilio wrote:...
Of course, there is the aspect, too, that exposure of non-lethal Rana-virus strains could protect against other strains of RV. I don't think there is any research to support this, though. I guess it would depend on how the immune system ID's and attacks it if non-lethal exposure could "vaccinate" against more lethal serotypes.

frogfreak wrote:I have 20+ infected frogs in my collection. They were from a US import from last November and I'm 99.9% sure of that. They are in isolation two floors from the rest of my frogs. Separate shoes are used to enter the room and disposable gloves are used. Separate feeders are used as well. Nothing comes out of the room that isn't sterilized or double bagged. When I first discovered that I have the virus in my collection I was in total panic mode and was prepared to euthanize all the frogs. After multiple conversations with Ed and people from all across North America and the UK I decided to keep them. I've read so much about this virus it makes my head hurt! Bottom line is in my case. The frogs are doing fine. I see no ill effects from the virus, so far. The strain has not been identified as of yet. I have two pairs breeding and they are not passing the virus onto the offspring. These are all Tincs and Auratus. I'm not where I want to be yet. The goal is do set up and house each frog individually in 10g tanks except for two breeding pairs and study them long term with the help of others.

Best

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Re: Some Ranavirus articles & testing

Postby JimO » Tue May 08, 2012 1:37 pm

In very general terms there are two types of viruses with respect to immune response. First, you have viruses like rhinovirus (common cold) or smallpox, where the virus has limited ability to mutate, so once you have gotten it, you are largely immune for the rest of your life. The reason we get so many colds is that there are dozens of different rhinovirus strains, but they don't mutate, so once you get a given strain, you never get it again. That's why kids get more colds than adults (of course there are adenovirus, RSV, and other viruses that cause cold and flu-like symptoms).

With smallpox (called variola), there were severals strains - from variola major (near 100% mortality) to variola minor (<10% mortality), and several in between; however, they were all genetically close enough that catching any strain conveyed immunity to all strains (if you survived). Interestingly, the smallpox vaccine isn't even made with variola virus. It's made with cowpox virus (vaccinia - where the term vaccine was derived), which is close enough to convey immunity. If ranavirus is like this, then the chances are that most captive frogs have been exposed, with some being asymptomatic, others getting sick and recovering, and others dying from it. Perhaps this explains why a certain percentage of frogs just die for no apparent reason - like juvenile obligates.

Then there are viruses like influenza, that inject their RNA into a human cell and cause the cell to produce millions of viruses with many reasorted combinations of the virus's eight RNA strands. Those that are recognized by the immune system are killed and those that are not cause symptoms and are passed on. That's why we have different flu strains every year and vaccines are only effective for one season. If ranavirus is like this, then some strains could be mild and others deadly and this could change over time.

The more I read, the more I suspect that we could all test for RA and a large percentage of collections would test positive. If this is the case, and people panic, then it could virtually shut down the frog trade until the implications of the virus are known. Hopefully, the result will be that it is a common pathogen with a low mortality rate that shouldn't affect the hobby. There are certain pathogens that simply cannot be eradicated from a population and their immune systems have evolved to deal with it. We are so used to having medication to treat any illness that we forget that the vast majority of pathogens are dealt with by our immune system. Most meds only make the symptoms more tolerable. Why would frogs (or any other animals be different). We certainly can't expect to keep our frogs in sterile environments.

What I'd like to know is whether ranavirus is like chytrid - introduced into populations with no prior exposure and no immune protection, or is it like cold and flu viruses in humans, where it is ubiquitous, most frogs are exposed at some time in their life and it is only deadly if an animal is weak, stressed, or doesn't have a strong immune system.

RichFrye wrote:There's also the chance that if the frogs have one strain and their bodies have fought off that strain successfully , the next strain could wipe them out easier since the body may think it's fighting the first strain and not the second.
Think Dengue .
BluePumilio wrote:...
Of course, there is the aspect, too, that exposure of non-lethal Rana-virus strains could protect against other strains of RV. I don't think there is any research to support this, though. I guess it would depend on how the immune system ID's and attacks it if non-lethal exposure could "vaccinate" against more lethal serotypes.

frogfreak wrote:I have 20+ infected frogs in my collection. They were from a US import from last November and I'm 99.9% sure of that. They are in isolation two floors from the rest of my frogs. Separate shoes are used to enter the room and disposable gloves are used. Separate feeders are used as well. Nothing comes out of the room that isn't sterilized or double bagged. When I first discovered that I have the virus in my collection I was in total panic mode and was prepared to euthanize all the frogs. After multiple conversations with Ed and people from all across North America and the UK I decided to keep them. I've read so much about this virus it makes my head hurt! Bottom line is in my case. The frogs are doing fine. I see no ill effects from the virus, so far. The strain has not been identified as of yet. I have two pairs breeding and they are not passing the virus onto the offspring. These are all Tincs and Auratus. I'm not where I want to be yet. The goal is do set up and house each frog individually in 10g tanks except for two breeding pairs and study them long term with the help of others.

Best

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Re: Some Ranavirus articles & testing

Postby frogfreak » Tue May 08, 2012 4:35 pm

Some good info guys.

BluePumilio wrote:So it is best to prevent the virus from becoming established in our hobby to prevent transmission, especially because it could cause problems with native wildlife as well. All that infected water your flushing is going somewhere.


All of my waste water is treated before being disposed of. I've been doing that since day 1 thank gawd.
Glenn

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Re: Some Ranavirus articles & testing

Postby Philsuma » Tue May 08, 2012 5:12 pm

RN...

Is it worth mentioning and discussing ? - Yep. ( I did get one PM from someone saying it was "Drama").

I think it is more common than we think and has probably been in the U.S hobby for years, if not a decade.

We need to keep gathering info on it and how it impacts the hobby.

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Re: Some Ranavirus articles & testing

Postby RichFrye » Tue May 08, 2012 5:35 pm

I think the people saying real health related issues pertinent to our frogs and the hobby is equating to drama seem to be the ones causing the drama.
Anyone who does not understand 'warning, quarantine , test and digest' as mandatory info to feed out and take in is not long for the hobby.
Darts with parasites are analogous to mixed tanks, there are no known benefits to the frogs with either.


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