Some Ranavirus articles & testing

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Re: Some Ranavirus articles & testing

Postby Philsuma » Thu May 10, 2012 9:15 pm

JimO wrote:It seems to me that there is more interest in arguing about the tone of the off-topic posts in this thread than the original subject matter - information and testing of RV. I offered to test and publicly report the results here, but if there is no interest, I'll probably wait a while.


Jim....a little patience please. Glenn and I just got to Frog Day after a 12 hour drive.....

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Re: Some Ranavirus articles & testing

Postby frogfreak » Thu May 10, 2012 9:22 pm

JimO wrote:It seems to me that there is more interest in arguing about the tone of the off-topic posts in this thread than the original subject matter - information and testing of RV. I offered to test and publicly report the results here, but if there is no interest, I'll probably wait a while.

HI Jim,

I would like to see as many people as we can testing and post the results publicly. It's the only way we will truly know what is going on a far as this virus goes. The forums are a fantastic tool for projects like this. I hope you continue to go ahead with it, Jim!

Cheers
Glenn

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Re: Some Ranavirus articles & testing

Postby brotherly monkey » Thu May 10, 2012 9:30 pm

frogfreak wrote:
JimO wrote:It seems to me that there is more interest in arguing about the tone of the off-topic posts in this thread than the original subject matter - information and testing of RV. I offered to test and publicly report the results here, but if there is no interest, I'll probably wait a while.

HI Jim,

I would like to see as many people as we can testing and post the results publicly. It's the only way we will truly know what is going on a far as this virus goes. The forums are a fantastic tool for projects like this. I hope you continue to go ahead with it, Jim!

Cheers



Honesty might be an issue with the above, especially if people see a positive as possibly threatening their supplementary income, or even ability to trade frogs.

not that I approve of such, but , well, people are people

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Re: Some Ranavirus articles & testing

Postby BcsTx » Thu May 10, 2012 10:23 pm

brotherly monkey wrote:
frogfreak wrote:
JimO wrote:It seems to me that there is more interest in arguing about the tone of the off-topic posts in this thread than the original subject matter - information and testing of RV. I offered to test and publicly report the results here, but if there is no interest, I'll probably wait a while.

HI Jim,

I would like to see as many people as we can testing and post the results publicly. It's the only way we will truly know what is going on a far as this virus goes. The forums are a fantastic tool for projects like this. I hope you continue to go ahead with it, Jim!

Cheers



Honesty might be an issue with the above, especially if people see a positive as possibly threatening their supplementary income, or even ability to trade frogs.

not that I approve of such, but , well, people are people


Simple answer Monkey, test your frogs.
No debate, it is black and white.
-Beth

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Re: Some Ranavirus articles & testing

Postby brotherly monkey » Thu May 10, 2012 11:18 pm

BcsTx wrote:Simple answer Monkey, test your frogs.
No debate, it is black and white.


Glenn mentioned about getting a picture of the wider hobby. I pointed out that what is openly reported on the forum could be misleading. Hence, the picture it paints might not be the most accurate.

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Re: Some Ranavirus articles & testing

Postby frogfreak » Fri May 11, 2012 3:02 am

brotherly monkey wrote:Glenn mentioned about getting a picture of the wider hobby. I pointed out that what is openly reported on the forum could be misleading. Hence, the picture it paints might not be the most accurate.


I really don't expect that this will be "accurate" IMO that's near not possible. There's just too many collections out there and many keepers don't post. It's more of a test run to see how prevalent the virus is. We just don't know. The more the better!

People will and will not post for various reasons. I had someone waiting for a breeding pair of Campana. I delayed him a little while waiting for results and then told him they were positive. He was a bit disappointed but very thankful in the end. He went home with some negative Powders. Not all hobbyists are out to make money off of their collections. It helps, but a few swabs here and there will do a lot for the hobby.

Best
Glenn

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Re: Some Ranavirus articles & testing

Postby brotherly monkey » Fri May 11, 2012 3:08 am

frogfreak wrote:
brotherly monkey wrote:Glenn mentioned about getting a picture of the wider hobby. I pointed out that what is openly reported on the forum could be misleading. Hence, the picture it paints might not be the most accurate.


I really don't expect that this will be "accurate" IMO that's near not possible. There's just too many collections out there and many keepers don't post. It's more of a test run to see how prevalent the virus is. We just don't know. The more the better!

People will and will not post for various reasons. I had someone waiting for a breeding pair of Campana. I delayed him a little while waiting for results and then told him they were positive. He was a bit disappointed but very thankful in the end. He went home with some negative Powders. Not all hobbyists are out to make money off of their collections. It helps, but a few swabs here and there will do a lot for the hobby.

Best


You might get better results if you create something where people can report results anonymously. Possible create 'an anonymous confession" type thread, or have an email account where people can send screen caps of their test results, with all personal data marked out

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Re: Some Ranavirus articles & testing

Postby frogfreak » Wed May 16, 2012 1:55 pm

brotherly monkey wrote:
frogfreak wrote:
brotherly monkey wrote:Glenn mentioned about getting a picture of the wider hobby. I pointed out that what is openly reported on the forum could be misleading. Hence, the picture it paints might not be the most accurate.


I really don't expect that this will be "accurate" IMO that's near not possible. There's just too many collections out there and many keepers don't post. It's more of a test run to see how prevalent the virus is. We just don't know. The more the better!

People will and will not post for various reasons. I had someone waiting for a breeding pair of Campana. I delayed him a little while waiting for results and then told him they were positive. He was a bit disappointed but very thankful in the end. He went home with some negative Powders. Not all hobbyists are out to make money off of their collections. It helps, but a few swabs here and there will do a lot for the hobby.

Best


You might get better results if you create something where people can report results anonymously. Possible create 'an anonymous confession" type thread, or have an email account where people can send screen caps of their test results, with all personal data marked out

That's fine by me. Do you want to set it up Phil? There was a ton of questions asked here and I will get to them. Posting this right before frog day wasn't the best idea. I've been thinking about exposing a pair of thumbs to it intentionally. This would answer the Pumilio question. The more we know the better. It has been written a few times and talked about at frog day that the virus is prevalent in collections. However is see no data to back up the claim...Where are the test results if this is the case? It's a statement made to make people feel better about their collections in my opinion.

Best
Glenn

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Re: Some Ranavirus articles & testing

Postby BluePumilio » Wed May 16, 2012 3:11 pm

I tested my animals, all originally from Strictly Reptiles, including specimens from the Feb. 2012 import. All specimens came back negative for Rana.

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Re: Some Ranavirus articles & testing

Postby frogfreak » Wed May 16, 2012 3:31 pm

BluePumilio wrote:I tested my animals, all originally from Strictly Reptiles, including specimens from the Feb. 2012 import. All specimens came back negative for Rana.

Nice, Justin!!
Glenn

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Re: Some Ranavirus articles & testing

Postby BcsTx » Wed May 16, 2012 3:41 pm

FYI to all testing, be sure you get 2 clean results at least 8 days apart,
this virus sheds so better to test at least twice.
-Beth

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Re: Some Ranavirus articles & testing

Postby JL-Exotics » Wed May 16, 2012 4:31 pm

BcsTx wrote:FYI to all testing, be sure you get 2 clean results at least 8 days apart,
this virus sheds so better to test at least twice.


Beth, can you expand on this a bit? Specifically, what do you mean by "sheds" and how does that relate to the sampling protocol you are suggesting? During a conversation with one of the testing labs they were quite adamant that very little virus is required for positive detection. How likely is it that an animal could be infected with the virus and still return a negative PCR test result?

I'm not questioning your recommendation at all, I'm just digging for more details on the how and why of the virus.

Thanks Beth!
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Re: Some Ranavirus articles & testing

Postby RichFrye » Wed May 16, 2012 4:47 pm

frogfreak wrote:
brotherly monkey wrote:
frogfreak wrote:
I really don't expect that this will be "accurate" IMO that's near not possible. There's just too many collections out there and many keepers don't post. It's more of a test run to see how prevalent the virus is. We just don't know. The more the better!

People will and will not post for various reasons. I had someone waiting for a breeding pair of Campana. I delayed him a little while waiting for results and then told him they were positive. He was a bit disappointed but very thankful in the end. He went home with some negative Powders. Not all hobbyists are out to make money off of their collections. It helps, but a few swabs here and there will do a lot for the hobby.

Best


You might get better results if you create something where people can report results anonymously. Possible create 'an anonymous confession" type thread, or have an email account where people can send screen caps of their test results, with all personal data marked out

That's fine by me. Do you want to set it up Phil? There was a ton of questions asked here and I will get to them. Posting this right before frog day wasn't the best idea. I've been thinking about exposing a pair of thumbs to it intentionally. This would answer the Pumilio question. The more we know the better. It has been written a few times and talked about at frog day that the virus is prevalent in collections. However is see no data to back up the claim...Where are the test results if this is the case? It's a statement made to make people feel better about their collections in my opinion.

Best


Any time someone opens with something along the lines of;
'humans have already screwed things up' or ' it's so wide spread we can't do anything' it makes me think they have something they are hiding or wish to hide or potentially hide...especially when talking in a huge , all encompassing air.
We have very little facts but there's no down side to testing, ever.
You will absolutely get a denial on many illnesses until 100% proven in a court of law from some in our hobby. Some very big names in fact.
If people have not 'gotten it' , this hobby is 99% about trust. And adjustments have needed to be made in who exactly can be trusted in our hobby, in the last few years especially. Unfortunate but true . Trust but verify (test completely).


Rich
Darts with parasites are analogous to mixed tanks, there are no known benefits to the frogs with either.


If tone is more important to you than content, you are at the wrong place.

My new email address is rich.frye@icloud.com and new phone number is 773 577 3476

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Re: Some Ranavirus articles & testing

Postby BcsTx » Wed May 16, 2012 5:10 pm

Hey Jeremy,
Per the lab you need 2 cleans 8 days apart, false negatives with real time PCR testing is 1%, while they are looking for DNA still possible to get a negative on a positive frog. I have had this happen on some newly acquired frogs that were replacements from the same breeder who sent me positive Rana frogs, first test negative second test positive.
The virus sheds so it is possible that it could be on the frog or not at that time.
Hope that makes sense.
-Beth

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Re: Some Ranavirus articles & testing

Postby BcsTx » Wed May 16, 2012 5:34 pm

Also, I have mixed feelings about posting results, the main reason is if I post that I bought frogs from Sam the frog breeder, there could be other hobbiests that have bought frogs from Sam and due to my negative result will not test their frogs from Sam.
Just a thought.
If anyone wants to know my results from my collection, so far negative but I still have 3 more morphs to test I will be happy to give you my results. I do give my results to the breeders I bought the frogs from and the individuals that buy frogs from me.
On the positive results (they were newly purchased frogs in QT) all frogs were euthenized except one set where the breeder wanted them back.
-Beth

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Re: Some Ranavirus articles & testing

Postby frogfreak » Wed May 16, 2012 7:11 pm

RichFrye wrote:If people have not 'gotten it' , this hobby is 99% about trust. And adjustments have needed to be made in who exactly can be trusted in our hobby, in the last few years especially. Unfortunate but true . Trust but verify (test completely).

That's why it doesn't bother me to post that I have RV in some of my collection. People trust me to do the right thing and I do. It takes years to build that trust in the dart frog community and would do nothing to jeopardize it! Being totally transparent is the way to go for me. Good news or bad news, I will share it. After all, someone would find out at some point and how would I look then? I'd look like I was trying to hide something. Not going to happen...

Cheers
Glenn

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Re: Some Ranavirus articles & testing

Postby BcsTx » Wed May 16, 2012 9:08 pm

All we can do is test our collection and new additions plus use strict QT procedures, away from collection, not on-automatic misting systems and last frogs to feed and hand mist, separate food, sprayers etc. plus wear gloves when swabbing, I use non latex not powdered gloves. Plus all leaf litter sphagnum moss in QT containers and water from current collection needs to be bleached before discarded. This is for the environment plus the frogs in your collection. Wash hands before you feed and after plus separate feeding utincels per viv. When shipping or handling frogs wear and replace gloves between vivs.
I am probably repeating myself, but have had some questions so posting my routine.
No mass histeria or conspiracy theory. Just protecting my frogs and the environment from cross contamination.
Visited with Ron Skysdale at FrogDay and besides being nice had plenty of info on the changes of the ASN mission statement, esp. on testing and QT.
-Beth

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Re: Some Ranavirus articles & testing

Postby Sports_Doc » Sat May 19, 2012 8:49 am

Other then Beth, Glenn in Canada, and Justin who is same geographic area as Beth....

I don't know of other froggers who have published their Rana PCR testing results. Or even done them for that matter.

Does anyone else?

1. Anyone can claim a clean collection. In fact if they do publicly, it is sorta strange and out of the norm [names above excluded]. Bragging...
2. Anyone can send samples, pay 20$ to get a clean test, from a 'fake' sample, just to prove to others they are 'clean'. Trust ?
3. Likely the few others that do test, don't do it perfectly bc it is a challenge with little frogs to swab properly, and do 2 sequential tests, and test all new arrivals, and all new plants etc etc.
4. It is a rare day that someone in this judgmental hobby would admit to ++ testing. So the information that goes public is biased.
5. Wouldn't it be nice to have a classifieds that includes tested/not tested in the ad? along with the copy of the results? Doubt it will ever happen.

I'd just rather assume everyone else' collection is full of things I don't want....period.

BTW: Like Justin, I tested the Feb 2012 import pumilio, still in QT, and they [one batch group out of 3 batches tested] were Chytrid +, RanaV neg. All [even the negative ones] are enjoying their lamasil baths. I did not receive any of the April 2012 pumilio. Nor have I had a RanaV + test yet. To dispel the rumors.

And yes, I keep copies of my PCR testing records.

How many past importations have come through and not been tested?? 10? 20? 30? thousands of frogs.........point is....whatever mother nature handed these animals in their native lands, they brought here. Like it or not. And that widely held belief that lowland/coastal frogs like Boca's pumilio should be Chytrid negative, isnt fully accurate...or the holding facilitates are less then sterile.

My suspicion is most of these 'pathogens' are only rarely a lethal concern. There are likely many dozens more that we dont know of yet, nor have a test for, so we shouldnt get all wigged out about these just b/c we can test for them now. What we need is more research about the true effects of these 'markers'.

I personal am in favor of a TWI f/u study on the prevalence of ranaV and Chytrid in the hobby. Anonymous as before. I've pledged financial support for it. The last study though had a very low turn out. People might be in favor of testing, but when it came to actually sending in samples....even when they were free...they hobbyist you know and love, were out to lunch.

some thoughts.
Shawn Harrington

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Re: Some Ranavirus articles & testing

Postby Roadrunner » Sat May 19, 2012 10:14 am

Since we have frogs from a lot of different places in nature, chytrid or rana or anything else isn't probably on every locale There are different strains so you can start a collection of nasties till you get every one? It probably won't affect all amphibs the same and could(and probably would) cause problems in a collection if spread throughout. A lot of these diseases probably get things from the import stations and it isn't natural for them(how do you know your lowland pumilio got chytrid in nature?). We have moved diseases all over the globe and rana may lessen the immunity to other nasties. If darts got diseases in Eu, they didn't come from nature(the nature the darts came from).
"I don't want to believe, I want to know" Carl Sagan(my fav. stoner:)

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Re: Some Ranavirus articles & testing

Postby RichFrye » Sat May 19, 2012 11:53 am

I know Beth pointed it out earlier,
but much as with fecal testing you need multiple tests for some pathogens to rule out non-shedding , false positives or false negatives, and possible cross contamination. RV is one of those pathogens.
Also, in very large collections it may be worth it to spend some time thinking out the logistics of exactly which frogs get tested first , and why.
Darts with parasites are analogous to mixed tanks, there are no known benefits to the frogs with either.


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