***STRESS !!!!! ***

Have a sick Dart Frog? Preventative, Treatments, Methods and Medicines.
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Philsuma
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***STRESS !!!!! ***

Postby Philsuma » Fri Sep 14, 2012 3:57 pm

Stress....the silent antagonist.

9 out of 10 new frog owners will say this:

1. I just got my frog but it won't eat.

2. My frog hides all the time, what's wrong ?


Let me try an analogy...say a small dark van screeches to a halt at your house around 2am. Someone tells you to get inside and says nothing more. The van speeds off into the darkness going very fast and hitting many bumps and potholes. You have no seatbelt. After a whole night (or day) the van door opens in front of a small apartment building. You are taken to the 10th floor and told to go inside room # 1020. You sit on a small couch inside the room. Maybe there is another person who you have never seen before already inside. Sometimes the front door of your new apartment opens and close, opens and slams shut, opens and closes. Sometimes a bright light in the living room turns on and off and on and off. Someone places a ham sandwich on the table right in front of you and expects you to eat it right away....

You get the point right ?

Sometimes it takes days, weeks or even a month or more before frogs 'settle down' and feel comfortable.

Don't mess with them unduly.

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Re: ***STRESS !!!!! ***

Postby frogfreak » Fri Sep 14, 2012 6:13 pm

LOL! Good analogy, but why do I suddenly want my Mommy!? :lol:

I've never had the desire to go hunting for frogs/froglets, if I don't SEE them. They're there and you can tell. Look for poop first! They'll show up when they want to and I think if you leave them alone they become bolder, in the end.
Glenn

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Re: ***STRESS !!!!! ***

Postby Rusty_Shackleford » Fri Sep 14, 2012 6:44 pm

If that were the opening scene in a movie I would watch the rest of it.

I can't emphasize enough to new or future frog owners to do lots of research. Every day, somewhere I see a thread along the lines of the above, or "I need a glass top?" or "Why do I need leaf litter? Moss looks prettier."
More research, ask questions, please.
Yes some of the questions get monotonous when they're asked time after time after time, in a lot of those cases a simple search would yield the answers to the question. I personally would prefer a newb just PM me if they want some one on one help. I have no problem with that and I would be glad to take the time to help someone who asked for help.

Sorry that kinda went off topic lol.
That's a good analogy Phil. Nothing like sitting exposed in a glass box and having big 'ol eyes staring at you 24/7
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Help stop the spread of Chytrid! Disinfect your waste water before disposing of it and double bag all solid wastes please!!

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Re: ***STRESS !!!!! ***

Postby Philsuma » Fri Sep 14, 2012 6:49 pm

Pm's hurt the whole purpose of the hobby Jon - to get all the info out there and make it find-able for all the people that continue to come along. I really dislike PM's because they deprive everyone else.

This thread isn't really meant to be funny or tongue in cheek...I'm prolly gonna sticky it and refer it to a lot of the 'my new frog won't eat' posts.

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Re: ***STRESS !!!!! ***

Postby Rusty_Shackleford » Fri Sep 14, 2012 7:15 pm

I understand your point about the PM's

I do think your original post is spot on. It makes the reader put themsleves in the frogs shoes so to speak. Perhaps the whole world is conditioned to think of an enthusiastic puppy when we hear the word "pet" A puppy while exploring it's new home is excited and will return to it's new owner for comfort and reassurance while getting used to it's new home. Frogs aren't like that. They are absolutely more likey to find a spot in which they feel secure and hunker down. They may come out and only partially expose themselves. Often just movement in the room they're in is enough to send them dashing for cover. I can only imagine how much constant observation, or prodding of the leaf litter in an attempt to see them would absolutely stress them out. I totally agree it's best to leave them be and even not to feed them on the day they arrive or maybe even the next day.

Has anyone ever tried the paper on glass technique? That is to tape dark paper ie black construction paper, to the outside of the viv. Every few days, maybe once a week, you lower the paper a bit to slowly reveal more of the tank. Yes it's harder to observe the frogs for signs of anything gone awry, but it will give the frogs some comfort and slowly acclimate them to the activity patterns in the room in which they are housed.
Jon - Ft. Myers, FL
Help stop the spread of Chytrid! Disinfect your waste water before disposing of it and double bag all solid wastes please!!

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Re: ***STRESS !!!!! ***

Postby edwardsatc » Fri Sep 14, 2012 8:33 pm

Philsuma wrote:Pm's hurt the whole purpose of the hobby Jon - to get all the info out there and make it find-able for all the people that continue to come along. I really dislike PM's because they deprive everyone else.

This thread isn't really meant to be funny or tongue in cheek...I'm prolly gonna sticky it and refer it to a lot of the 'my new frog won't eat' posts.


First,I would argue that the purpose of the "hobby" is not to share information, it is to keep frogs. It may be the purpose of this forum, but not the hobby.

Second, some of us just like to converse without all the drama and would be more likely to post if certain pompous members didn't try to force their will and POS opinions upon us all. I don't see how a PM is any different than a face to face conversation ... it doesn't deprive anyone of anything. They just aren't part of the conversation.

Now back to our regularly scheduled programming:

Good first post on stress, but I suspect that newbs do as much to stress their new arrivals as the trip to their house does. Handling, poking, prodding, constant searches to ensure their froggies are still safe, barren quarantine housing, the constant peering into the enclosure, etc. My best advice to new frog owners is to place your frogs in proper quarantine housing that provides plenty of space to hide and then leave them be except for daily feeding/welfare check. Resist the urge to constantly observe and disturb new frogs.

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Re: ***STRESS !!!!! ***

Postby fieldsmith » Tue Oct 02, 2012 4:36 pm

I'll reiterate the "leave them alone" approach. When I'm acclimating a new froglet (especially one that has just morphed) I try to disturb them as little as possible. I've gone weeks without seeing frogs (and in the case of one especially shy species I went months without a glimpse) but can tell they are alive by seeing poop. I don't even turn a leaf in the growout...if I see a froglet hopping around thats great, but I'd rather not see one and know its not getting stressed out by my presence. Yeah, sometimes I have that "oh crap" moment where I think the froglet may not even be alive anymore...but it makes it all the more satisfying when it finally appears in the open, plump and healthy. I'm a big fan of covering 3 sides of vivs to reduce stress, especially in growouts...eliminating most of the visual stressors just makes sense.
-Field Smith
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Re: ***STRESS !!!!! ***

Postby Philsuma » Thu Jan 03, 2013 7:05 pm

I just got a PM asking me if Mila Kunis AND/or Megan Fox can already be inside the above apartment along with the Ham Sandwich and all I have to say, that if that scenario was really happening...I would be combating and standing on anyone else's head that got in the way of that !

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Re: ***STRESS !!!!! ***

Postby Philsuma » Sat Feb 02, 2013 8:44 pm

uh Byron.....no comment on my post above ?? :roll:

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Re: ***STRESS !!!!! ***

Postby Armson » Sun Feb 03, 2013 6:41 am

I am a devoted husband and would never dream of betraying my wife's trust.


-Byron

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Re: ***STRESS !!!!! ***

Postby Armson » Sun Feb 03, 2013 6:51 am

Armson wrote:I am a devoted husband and would never dream of betraying my wife's trust.


-Byron



AHAHAHAHAHA

Yeah Right! For those two...

Man, all the things I would do...

We are talking like literally 15-30 seconds tops.



My wife has a list of men that will make me a "single parent"
Ryan Reynolds is one of the top. When she found out that Scarlett Johansen was dating him she demanded I remove Johansen from my list because "that girl is a bitch and she so stupid and........"

-Byron

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Re: ***STRESS !!!!! ***

Postby RichFrye » Sun Feb 03, 2013 4:39 pm

David Johansen would make a better date for Reynolds.
Darts with parasites are analogous to mixed tanks, there are no known benefits to the frogs with either.


If tone is more important to you than content, you are at the wrong place.

My new email address is rich.frye@icloud.com and new phone number is 773 577 3476

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Re: ***STRESS !!!!! ***

Postby Philsuma » Mon May 06, 2013 4:52 pm

Armson wrote:Stress !??!?!?

Are you stressing about how you are going to make it to frog day this year?


I'm gonna come home late some night and find all the living room and bedroom lights on bright, low dry humidity and a nasty ham sandwich on the coffee table....next to a note saying a "van" is picking me up at 3am, followed by a loud knock at the door.

:shock:

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Re: ***STRESS !!!!! ***

Postby ZenMonkey » Tue Aug 13, 2013 6:31 pm

Bumping this, if that's okay, because of how helpful this thread was to me. Last night husband and I freaked out a bit when we couldn't find one of the froglets -- turned out he'd found a really fabulous hiding place in a bromeliad. I've seen all three frogs hopping around, climbing, and exploring, but right now one of the outgoing ones is just hunkered down under a leaf and unmoving. Since she seemed comfortable earlier -- all three of them ate -- I figured it was probably just "rest" (i.e., escape from stress). Funny thing is, she's right at the front of the terrarium and not super well hidden...seems like she might enjoy looking out while feeling well hidden.

Anyway, I will do my best not to peer into the viv except when feeding or misting. My room is calm and quiet and doesn't get much traffic (it's just my husband and two Burmese cats in the house anyway, the latter of whom don't care much about non-human animals), so it shouldn't be too visually taxing for them.

I am interested whether misting is a stressor. Until I find a glass cover for half of my viv, I'm going to need to mist 3-4 times a day here in dry So Cal. They seem to get rather active afterwards, out in the open, which I thought meant they were enjoying it, but now I'm wondering if I'm just annoying them. (Not that they have a choice.)
A girl named Joey.

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Re: ***STRESS !!!!! ***

Postby Philsuma » Tue Aug 13, 2013 7:42 pm

Spraying the animal directly or even indirectly is stressful, yes. I would spray the vivarium and plantings ect, and try not to hit the frogs.

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Re: ***STRESS !!!!! ***

Postby ZenMonkey » Tue Aug 13, 2013 7:46 pm

Philsuma wrote:Spraying the animal directly or even indirectly is stressful, yes. I would spray the vivarium and plantings ect, and try not to hit the frogs.


Oh no, I don't mist the frogs. I mist the back and sides of the viv, any soil or rock areas where there are no frogs, and spray above the plants so that it'll rain down on them in case the frogs are hiding inside. They just tend to come out of hiding places and jump around for a bit afterwards, which I can't tell if it's happy or freaked-out behavior.
A girl named Joey.

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Re: ***STRESS !!!!! ***

Postby Philsuma » Sat Aug 17, 2013 6:34 pm

So if you have 4 pumilio all housed together and there is some wrestling and egg eating.....?

You should probably think about separating them, as the relationship and social dynamic is not apt to change itself.

Stress will continue until someone slides, and goes downhill and before ya know, in just a couple days = a frog death. It could easily be just that quick and unavoidable.

Also, it's been documented that in the wild, the females are primarily the egg eaters, but in captive conditions, it's been noted that the dominant male will also eat eggs that somehow manage to get fertilized by another male. Rare in our Hobby conditions perhaps, but documented nonetheless.

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Re: ***STRESS !!!!! ***

Postby BcsTx » Sat Aug 17, 2013 11:14 pm

Humm... Lets just pull all of them out of the box and throw all 4 of them in a viv....
I separate juvies when I see calling in 10 g to try to probable sex them ( have pum males that call at 4 mos sometimes longer, typically males will call at the 6 mo mark, no guarantee's their is always the chance of a non calling male in a viv with a calling male). Big difference between pums and thumbs, just because they are small does not mean they are the same.
Thanks for starting this thread Phil, when I read it (on another forum) along with the "advice" I cringed.
-Beth

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Re: ***STRESS !!!!! ***

Postby Philsuma » Sat Aug 17, 2013 11:43 pm

Thanks Beth. I edited my earlier post as it had some word choice and syntax errors.

It seems that there is always 'hobby slippage' - stuffing frogs in small / 10 gallon tanks as well as 'how many can fit', that manage to crop up every so often.

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Re: ***STRESS !!!!! ***

Postby Philsuma » Wed Oct 23, 2013 1:46 pm

"Stress and the 10 gallon Tank"

I had a chance to observe numerous Oophaga pumilio and Dendrobates auratus in situ as well as over 8 years in captivity and while it CAN be done- housing these animals in '10 gallon' sized enclosures, it is FAR from ideal and best practice.

Here's the main, and simplest analogy or breakdown that I can think of:

Stress just may be the #1 killer of frogs in Captivity. Parasites and Disease gain footholds and cause mortality based on stress present in the animal. Overall health declines rapidly in proportion to stress.

Even a 'happily mated' pair of frogs will endure stress. Stress is part of everyday life for these animals. As long as they come in contact with each other = stress. Mating = Stress. Just because your pair of frogs is laying eggs, doesn't mean they are living a happy carefree existence.

Although this genus of frogs is often found in high densities, this does not equate to being able to stuff them into 10 gallon sized enclosures. In situ, they have a myriad of places to flee, retreat and hide. Most people's vivariums, especially new hobbyists' are VERY BARE.

Let's just take an arbitrary number of possible hides,retreats and visual barriers available in their native environment....say, 12. 12 different options are quickly and easily available. How many can be replicated in a 10 gallon, which is actually more like a 7 gallon, when hardscaped...? Nowhere near 12. Probably nowhere near 6. Most likely 1 or 2.

The new hobbyists look here on the Forum for help and guidance. They look for best practices and experienced members to recommend things and speak up.

the last thing we need to do is keep giving them 'a green light' to put 3-4 OR MORE frogs in a ten gallon fishy tank.


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