Positive for Coccidia - treatments ?

Have a sick Dart Frog? Preventative, Treatments, Methods and Medicines.
pa.walt
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Positive for Coccidia - treatments ?

Postby pa.walt » Fri Jul 05, 2013 10:49 am

This might of been posted but how would I know if my frog has it beside doing an medical test ?

Does it get real skinny, turn purple, bloat..... I know it probably stops eating.

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Re: coccidia

Postby BcsTx » Fri Jul 05, 2013 11:14 am

Typically no symptoms, only way to determine if your frogs have it is by doing fecals.
-Beth

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Philsuma
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Re: Positive for Coccidia ?

Postby Philsuma » Fri Jul 05, 2013 1:28 pm

and....there's no 'cure' for it. Only suppression ?

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Re: Positive for Coccidia ?

Postby BcsTx » Fri Jul 05, 2013 3:06 pm

Philsuma wrote:and....there's no 'cure' for it. Only suppression ?


Correct. It can be put in remission but the frog has to be on meds for the rest of their life.
-Beth

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Re: Positive for Coccidia ?

Postby Armson » Fri Jul 05, 2013 4:23 pm

Is this something that is usually screened for when fecal tests are run or does this need to be specifically mentioned?

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Re: Positive for Coccidia ?

Postby BcsTx » Fri Jul 05, 2013 8:07 pm

Armson wrote:Is this something that is usually screened for when fecal tests are run or does this need to be specifically mentioned?


It is typically part of a fecal (I use Dr. Frye) and he looks for it along with parasites. If in question I would ask.
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Re: Positive for Coccidia ?

Postby frogface » Thu Jul 18, 2013 8:06 pm

Armson wrote:Is this something that is usually screened for when fecal tests are run or does this need to be specifically mentioned?


Hey guys. I just finished treating a pair of sips for possible coccidia. Coccidia is diagnosed through necropsy and histopathology, so, it's just presumed with these guys, lol. Symptoms were small smeary spots rather than nice tinc poos.

The older drugs helped with symptoms but did not eliminate the coccidia. Newer treatment has been found to eliminate it in Bearded Dragons. It hasn't been determined yet in frogs. Anyway, the med is called ponazuril. It has been used for mammals for years and more recently reformulated for reptiles and now amphibians. The med is oral, two times a day for 3 days.

If you suspect coccidia, ask your vet to look into the newer treatments.

My pair is doing very well, thanks. :D
Do you know where your frogs have been?

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Re: Positive for Coccidia ?

Postby frogface » Thu Jul 18, 2013 8:20 pm

Regarding fecals; I asked my vet about diagnosing coccidia through fecals. She said it is not diagnosed that way. You can find possible signs of coccidia, such as red blood cells, in the fecal sample, but, that could be caused by other things and is therefor not a diagnostic tool for coccidia. The only way to diagnose is through necropsy/histopathology.

This pair has had negative fecal after negative fecal after negative fecal.
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Re: Positive for Coccidia ?

Postby BcsTx » Thu Jul 18, 2013 10:26 pm

Not sure if this is a Herp vet etc. but keep in mind one opinion is not "truth" and the drug you are using has not been studied/used with DF just bearded dragons and pets ( dogs, cats, horses etc.). I have put out some e-mail inquiries with several Vets and herptologists will post their opinions.
First one "Coccidia sheds sporadically. You can have false negatives, but shouldn't have false positives if the vet knows coccidia (which isn't incredibly difficult.)
Second one: "Wrong. The eggs are shed through the digestive system and show up in the fecals."
Wed I had my cats annual wellness exam, I brought fecals in this morning and will get results (they send them to a lab) from their technician tomorrow and will pick his/her brain as well.
Will say this parasites are parasites all of them are found via fecal float, dogs, cats and frogs. If necropsys were needed for coccidia which is common in cats and dogs etc. plus some strains can be passed to humans if the only diagnosis was necropsy we would be in a pickle so to speak.
Will post more info when I get it with their ok.
Do a simple google on coccidia in amphibians and there is plenty of microscopic views of coccidia.
-Beth

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Re: Positive for Coccidia ?

Postby BcsTx » Thu Jul 18, 2013 11:37 pm

More info from a Herp vet: Technically coccidia doesn't shed eggs. They shed sporophytes (irrc).
-Beth

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Re: Positive for Coccidia ?

Postby BcsTx » Thu Jul 18, 2013 11:51 pm

Here's a web page with microscopic pics of coccidia in amphibians:
http://biology.unm.edu/biology/coccidia/Bolek2008.ppt
-Beth

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Re: Positive for Coccidia ?

Postby RichFrye » Fri Jul 19, 2013 11:27 am

Coccidia in darts can be viewed in a fecal sample just as it is every day for dogs and cats.
So, while a (one lone) negative certainly does not guarantee your frog is clear of coccidia , a positive result does guarantee your frog has coccidia. Multiple testing is key.

If your frogs are at the point to where they are symptomatic the chance of coccidia not showing in a fecal sample would be slim.
Darts with parasites are analogous to mixed tanks, there are no known benefits to the frogs with either.


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Re: Positive for Coccidia ?

Postby frogface » Fri Jul 19, 2013 7:14 pm

My vet is an exotic vet that specializes in reptiles and amphibians. Oh, and she hangs with Dr Wright. :P

I don't know how to account for the discrepancies in the info from the experts, because I'm not one of the experts. I do know that my frogs showed symptoms, had multiple clean fecals, had tx for presumed coccidia, and now no longer have symptoms. (eta: the problem might be in my translation of vet speak)

Fecals for this vet are always fresh. She doesn't want them if they are more than a few hours old. She wants them removed from the tank as soon as pooped, immediately refrigerated, and brought to their lab asap. They will not accept mailed fecals. I specifically asked this as I hoped she might be another source for people without local vets.

Oh, if anyone is interested, they make YouTube videos. I enjoy them. There's the channel: http://www.youtube.com/user/ExoticPetVetTVShow/videos

edit: fixed link.
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Re: Positive for Coccidia ?

Postby RichFrye » Fri Jul 19, 2013 7:31 pm

frogface wrote:My vet is an exotic vet that specializes in reptiles and amphibians. Oh, and she hangs with Dr Wright. :P

I don't know how to account for the discrepancies in the info from the experts, because I'm not one of the experts. I do know that my frogs showed symptoms, had multiple clean fecals, had tx for presumed coccidia, and now no longer have symptoms. (eta: the problem might be in my translation of vet speak)

Fecals for this vet are always fresh. She doesn't want them if they are more than a few hours old. She wants them removed from the tank as soon as pooped, immediately refrigerated, and brought to their lab asap. They will not accept mailed fecals. I specifically asked this as I hoped she might be another source for people without local vets.

Oh, if anyone is interested, they make YouTube videos. I enjoy them. There's the channel: http://www.youtube.com/user/ExoticPetVetTVShow/videos

edit: fixed link.


A few years ago I had a recorded conversation with Dr. Wright where he explained why coccidia in darts remained only treatable , not curable. I don't remember the exact terms he used ( they are in his book) , but I can dig out the recording when I get some time.
I'm really not sure why someone thinks that they can not read coccidian signs in poop, be it dog, cat or frog, but I assure you I have seen it for myself along with other protozoa and it's a common thing. Not as common as it used to be in the days of 'everyone needs to feed pin-heads' , but common.
What I am not getting here is that the vet claims that there needs to be a necropsy...and yet you mention clean fecals when coccidia is not being looked for.
Is she saying she has never found coccidia in fecals? I find that extremely hard to believe being that the samples are so fresh. Older ones have shown coccidia.
Darts with parasites are analogous to mixed tanks, there are no known benefits to the frogs with either.


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My new email address is rich.frye@icloud.com and new phone number is 773 577 3476

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Re: Positive for Coccidia ?

Postby frogface » Fri Jul 19, 2013 7:38 pm

RichFrye wrote:
frogface wrote:My vet is an exotic vet that specializes in reptiles and amphibians. Oh, and she hangs with Dr Wright. :P

I don't know how to account for the discrepancies in the info from the experts, because I'm not one of the experts. I do know that my frogs showed symptoms, had multiple clean fecals, had tx for presumed coccidia, and now no longer have symptoms. (eta: the problem might be in my translation of vet speak)

Fecals for this vet are always fresh. She doesn't want them if they are more than a few hours old. She wants them removed from the tank as soon as pooped, immediately refrigerated, and brought to their lab asap. They will not accept mailed fecals. I specifically asked this as I hoped she might be another source for people without local vets.

Oh, if anyone is interested, they make YouTube videos. I enjoy them. There's the channel: http://www.youtube.com/user/ExoticPetVetTVShow/videos

edit: fixed link.


A few years ago I had a recorded conversation with Dr. Wright where he explained why coccidia in darts remained only treatable , not curable. I don't remember the exact terms he used ( they are in his book) , but I can dig out the recording when I get some time.
I'm really not sure why someone thinks that they can not read coccidian signs in poop, be it dog, cat or frog, but I assure you I have seen it for myself along with other protozoa and it's a common thing. Not as common as it used to be in the days of 'everyone needs to feed pin-heads' , but common.
What I am not getting here is that the vet claims that there needs to be a necropsy...and yet you mention clean fecals when coccidian is not being looked for.
Is she saying she has never found coccidian in fecals? I find that extremely hard to believe being that the samples are so fresh. Older ones have shown coccidian.


I remember the calls with Dr Wright. Those were great :D

I think it's really likely that I am not repeating things exactly right. Treatment with ponazuril is fairly recent. Perhaps it was not used when that call took place? They were looking for coccidia on fecal. They did not find it. From what I understand, it can be present and not show on fecal. At any rate, she did not say that it cured frogs. She said that it was shown to eliminate it in Bearded Dragons but there was not enough research yet to say whether or not it did so for frogs.

This vet gave physical exams and fecal exams to Bill Schwinn's frogs, free of charge. She spent quite a bit of time looking them over and talking about them. I want to say it was almost 2 hours but I'm not certain. She's definitely in it for the animals and the science and not the money. Good people.
Do you know where your frogs have been?

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Re: Positive for Coccidia ?

Postby RichFrye » Fri Jul 19, 2013 7:51 pm

Ed likes to say time and again that you can't prove a frog is free of coccidian unless it is necropsied . That's true. But rarely relevant to the issue. Because coccidia is found in poop all the time. When it is , proper actions are required for the frogs' health. Bottom line.
I'll dig out the Dr. Wright reason for the inability to cure coccidia in darts .
I am very surprised that symptomatic frogs did not show coccidia in the fecal matter, but stranger things have happened, I suppose. It is possible there were no coccidia to be found.
Darts with parasites are analogous to mixed tanks, there are no known benefits to the frogs with either.


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Re: Positive for Coccidia ?

Postby frogface » Mon Jul 22, 2013 6:57 pm

Has anyone been able to find any info on the effectiveness of ponazuril on coccidia in frogs?

My pair is starting to court again. Pulled a bad clutch from their temp tank tonight. Here's a pic of them:
They really are beautiful frogs.

Image
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Re: Positive for Coccidia ?

Postby frogface » Tue Jul 23, 2013 7:54 am

Here's an article by Dr Wright regarding ADV in bearded dragons. It mentions ponazuril as tx for coccidia : http://www.reptilechannel.com/reptile-h ... ragos.aspx

snip:
If you have an ill bearded dragon, young or old, a veterinarian can examine it and perform tests to better understand what is wrong. In some instances, baby bearded dragons may have a parasite that may cause loss of appetite, diarrhea, and weight loss or slow growth. If the baby is ADV negative and the protozoan parasite coccidia is diagnosed, your veterinarian may prescribe ponazuril as a safe and effective treatment. If the baby is ADV positive, the medication will still target the coccidian, but your dragon may not develop the immunity needed to fight this parasite and may be predisposed to coccidiosis the rest of its life. The same is true for other parasites, such as flagellated protozoa, as well as many other infectious diseases.
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Re: Positive for Coccidia ?

Postby Philsuma » Tue Jul 23, 2013 7:57 am

Very good looking frogs...look healthy. Shows how insidious the big 'C' is.

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Re: Positive for Coccidia ?

Postby RichFrye » Tue Jul 23, 2013 10:35 am

frogface wrote:... If the baby is ADV negative and the protozoan parasite coccidia is diagnosed, your veterinarian may prescribe ponazuril as a safe and effective treatment...


You will notice that the ponazuril is stated as a treatment, not a cure. This coinsides with what Dr. Wright told me during the interview and what is in his book. It also coinsides with other meds used to treat coccidia in darts today. It would seem there are options for the treatment of coccidian in darts, but still no known cure.


Quotes taken from Tape # 7 of the interview.



Rich "Coccidia In your opinion, the darts' system doesn't ever really wipe that out."

Dr. Wright "No, because they definitely go in other tissues , not just the intestines. So the ponazuril is what I have had really great success with."
Darts with parasites are analogous to mixed tanks, there are no known benefits to the frogs with either.


If tone is more important to you than content, you are at the wrong place.

My new email address is rich.frye@icloud.com and new phone number is 773 577 3476


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