Positive for Coccidia - treatments ?

Have a sick Dart Frog? Preventative, Treatments, Methods and Medicines.
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RichFrye
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Re: Positive for Coccidia - treatments ?

Postby RichFrye » Sun Sep 22, 2013 9:13 pm

Hi Kris,
Would you mind asking your vet why she guesses there was notable issues in the digestive tract and yet zero signs of coccidia in any of the multiple fecals.
In the mean time I have a request out for pictures of coccidia found in dart fecals. Finding coccidia in dart fecals is a common occurrence. I'm still not sure why a vet finds it unusual to find them in dart fecals, yet all vets check for coccidia in many species of animals daily and successfully ID said coccidia.
Darts with parasites are analogous to mixed tanks, there are no known benefits to the frogs with either.


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Re: Positive for Coccidia - treatments ?

Postby frogface » Sun Sep 22, 2013 9:20 pm

RichFrye wrote:Hi Kris,
Would you mind asking your vet why she guesses there was notable issues in the digestive tract and yet zero signs of coccidia in any of the multiple fecals.
In the mean time I have a request out for pictures of coccidia found in dart fecals. Finding coccidia in dart feclas is a common occurance. I'm still not sure why a vet finds it unusual to find them in dart fecals, yet all vets check for coccidia in many species of animals daily and successfully ID said coccidia.


I'm guessing the notable issues digestive tract were the diarrhea and the swollen digestive tract of the frog that underwent gross necropsy. The frog that was necropsied had a clean fecal, swollen digestive tract, and a belly that was packed full of flies. I don't know why that is and I can't answer the rest. I don't know why vets do what they do or believe what they believe. I do know that my vet is extremely bright and very interested in reptile and amphibian medicine.

Rich, does your brother, Dr Frye, go to these ARAV conferences? If so, maybe he could speak with her and Dr Wright directly about it.
Do you know where your frogs have been?

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Re: Positive for Coccidia - treatments ?

Postby RichFrye » Sun Sep 22, 2013 9:29 pm

Kris, can you please ask your vet my question?
Im going to have to reread this whole thread again because flies in the digestive tract does not coccidia make.
My brother, to my knowledge does not attend those events. I have no idea how that is relevant to the conversation , since it is me involved in this thread and not him in any way.
Darts with parasites are analogous to mixed tanks, there are no known benefits to the frogs with either.


If tone is more important to you than content, you are at the wrong place.

My new email address is rich.frye@icloud.com and new phone number is 773 577 3476

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Re: Positive for Coccidia - treatments ?

Postby frogface » Sun Sep 22, 2013 9:39 pm

There weren't flies in the digestive tract. The issue with the digestive tract was that it was swollen/inflamed. She has repeatedly said that coccidia is rarely found in fecal samples. In fact, it's written in her email that I posted.
Do you know where your frogs have been?

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Re: Positive for Coccidia - treatments ?

Postby RichFrye » Sun Sep 22, 2013 9:43 pm

For quick perspective, since my brother was brought up, he says that "maybe one in 15-30 teat positive, now, depends on who they are from."
Last edited by RichFrye on Sun Sep 22, 2013 9:46 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Darts with parasites are analogous to mixed tanks, there are no known benefits to the frogs with either.


If tone is more important to you than content, you are at the wrong place.

My new email address is rich.frye@icloud.com and new phone number is 773 577 3476

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Re: Positive for Coccidia - treatments ?

Postby RichFrye » Sun Sep 22, 2013 9:46 pm

frogface wrote:There weren't flies in the digestive tract. The issue with the digestive tract was that it was swollen/inflamed. She has repeatedly said that coccidia is rarely found in fecal samples. In fact, it's written in her email that I posted.

I am going to write up a number of questions for your vet. I will post them here first.
Will you agree to pass them along to your vet , please.
At this point there is WAY too much wheel spinning and frankly I am a bit tired of third hand info.
Darts with parasites are analogous to mixed tanks, there are no known benefits to the frogs with either.


If tone is more important to you than content, you are at the wrong place.

My new email address is rich.frye@icloud.com and new phone number is 773 577 3476

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Re: Positive for Coccidia - treatments ?

Postby RichFrye » Sun Sep 22, 2013 9:48 pm

...and, the belly is part of the digestive tract. Parts i don't get...
Darts with parasites are analogous to mixed tanks, there are no known benefits to the frogs with either.


If tone is more important to you than content, you are at the wrong place.

My new email address is rich.frye@icloud.com and new phone number is 773 577 3476

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Re: Positive for Coccidia - treatments ?

Postby frogface » Sun Sep 22, 2013 9:54 pm

RichFrye wrote:
frogface wrote:There weren't flies in the digestive tract. The issue with the digestive tract was that it was swollen/inflamed. She has repeatedly said that coccidia is rarely found in fecal samples. In fact, it's written in her email that I posted.

I am going to write up a number of questions for your vet. I will post them here first.
Will you agree to pass them along to your vet , please.
At this point there is WAY too much wheel spinning and frankly I am a bit tired of third hand info.


Sure thing!

eta: I separated digestive tract because they did so when they presented the findings; stomach packed full of food and digestive tract inflamed.

eta2; what wheel spinning?
Do you know where your frogs have been?

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Re: Positive for Coccidia - treatments ?

Postby RichFrye » Mon Sep 23, 2013 12:02 pm

Kris,
it is very hard for me to follow from start to ending and get the best picture of what your frogs went through and the full logic behind it.
The story has changed and been amended , much in part because you are not a vet (neither am I) and I feel there is a loss in translation.
There are several issue that do not add up and I will later in the week type them all out and present them to be passed along to your vet.
One huge glaring point that keeps coming back to me is the pronouncement that coccidia is not found in fecals . This is just not true, and certainly not true of an infected frog which is showing signs of coccidia in it's digestive tract.
But, that will be part of my list later this week.
I appreciate the passing along of my questions, thanks. I think we will all find info helpful to our husbandry at the end of this.
Darts with parasites are analogous to mixed tanks, there are no known benefits to the frogs with either.


If tone is more important to you than content, you are at the wrong place.

My new email address is rich.frye@icloud.com and new phone number is 773 577 3476

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Re: Positive for Coccidia - treatments ?

Postby frogface » Mon Sep 23, 2013 8:08 pm

Ok Rich. I'll keep an eye out for it. In the mean time here are some things that might be confusing the issue:

My vet did not perform the gross necropsy on the male frog that died. That was done by the owner of the practice while my vet was away at an ARAV conference. He performed a gross necropsy for me, free of charge, because I could not afford a full necropsy, which is done at the State Veterinary Diagnostic and Pathology Lab.

Fecal samples were run from the deceased male frog and also the female, who had been housed with him, but not at the same time. I do not recall which sample it was, but one sample came back with 'unknown protozoa.' This prompted tx with metronidazole, which only temporarily improved the female. Several fecal exams followed with no findings.

One huge glaring point that keeps coming back to me is the pronouncement that coccidia is not found in fecals .


My vet has not said that coccidia is not found in fecals. She said it is rarely found and that she uses clinical signs rather than relying on fecals for tx of coccidia.

My brother, to my knowledge does not attend those events. I have no idea how that is relevant to the conversation , since it is me involved in this thread and not him in any way.


I thought I recalled that sometime in the recent past you and your brother were working on a research project related to coccidia. Maybe this was back on DartFrogz? Or am I remembering it completely wrong? Anyway, I thought you two might still be doing this together.
Do you know where your frogs have been?

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Re: Positive for Coccidia - treatments ?

Postby RichFrye » Tue Sep 24, 2013 12:29 pm

frogface wrote:Ok Rich. I'll keep an eye out for it. In the mean time here are some things that might be confusing the issue:


One huge glaring point that keeps coming back to me is the pronouncement that coccidia is not found in fecals .


My vet has not said that coccidia is not found in fecals. She said it is rarely found and that she uses clinical signs rather than relying on fecals for tx of coccidia.

My brother, to my knowledge does not attend those events. I have no idea how that is relevant to the conversation , since it is me involved in this thread and not him in any way.


I thought I recalled that sometime in the recent past you and your brother were working on a research project related to coccidia. Maybe this was back on DartFrogz? Or am I remembering it completely wrong? Anyway, I thought you two might still be doing this together.



IF your vet considers finding coccidia at a rate of one in 15-30 samples rare, then I would say we have a very different definition of "rare". If your vet is saying that she is running hundreds ( or thousands or tens of thousands) of dart frog fecals and she almost never finds coccidia in the fecal matter, then quite bluntly, she is missing the coccidia.

My brother has been running his own clinic for over a decade now and graduated in the top 10% from the recognized #1 vet school in the nation, MSU. He has done many thousands of dart frog fecals alone and absolutely finds coccidia at what I personally would call 'all the time' frequency. My brother does not have his staff run dart fecals, he runs each and every sample him self.
I give out the background of my brother only because you started out with the facts that your vet is an exotics vet and "hangs with Dr. Wright". It's not a competition, but I know my brother's skill levels and IDing coccidia in poop is well within his talents.

There has never been a time where my brother and myself have ever worked together on any coccidia project. I am not a vet. My brother, just as any exotics vet would, has studied coccidia and has a very good grasp on what it does or can do to dart frogs. He offers more than one treatment for coccidia, just as he offers different drugs for other parasites infecting dart frogs. this has been his SOP from the very beginning.

I am VERY limited on time this week, but hopefully by this weekend I can write out those questions for yur vet and we can get some direct answers.
Darts with parasites are analogous to mixed tanks, there are no known benefits to the frogs with either.


If tone is more important to you than content, you are at the wrong place.

My new email address is rich.frye@icloud.com and new phone number is 773 577 3476

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Re: Positive for Coccidia - treatments ?

Postby frogface » Mon Oct 07, 2013 8:03 pm

My vet heard back from the lab in Florida that does the PCR test. I'm going to do it. It's expensive though; $215 per frog per test. I'll have to wait to see if I get furloughed first. It can be done with fecals or, better, with cloacal swab. So, do they make a swab that small? :p

Rich, I'm still open to presenting the questions to her, but, I have to say that I am satisfied with the advice I've received from my vet and Dr Wright.
Do you know where your frogs have been?

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Re: Positive for Coccidia - treatments ?

Postby Philsuma » Mon Oct 07, 2013 8:13 pm

You guys and gals know Dr .Wright passed away recently right ?

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Re: Positive for Coccidia - treatments ?

Postby frogface » Mon Oct 07, 2013 8:17 pm

Do you know where your frogs have been?

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Re: Positive for Coccidia - treatments ?

Postby RichFrye » Mon Oct 07, 2013 8:23 pm

frogface wrote:My vet heard back from the lab in Florida that does the PCR test. I'm going to do it. It's expensive though; $215 per frog per test. I'll have to wait to see if I get furloughed first. It can be done with fecals or, better, with cloacal swab. So, do they make a swab that small? :p

Rich, I'm still open to presenting the questions to her, but, I have to say that I am satisfied with the advice I've received from my vet and Dr Wright.

Kris, been very busy the last month or three so I have not had the time to write the questions up.
I am glad you are satisfied with your vet. I assume then that she should have no troubles answering my list of questions and then I will be satisfied too.
Darts with parasites are analogous to mixed tanks, there are no known benefits to the frogs with either.


If tone is more important to you than content, you are at the wrong place.

My new email address is rich.frye@icloud.com and new phone number is 773 577 3476

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Re: Positive for Coccidia - treatments ?

Postby Philsuma » Mon Oct 07, 2013 8:29 pm

Thanks for the attention to this thread Kris - the back and forth with your Vet.

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Re: Positive for Coccidia - treatments ?

Postby frogface » Sat Oct 19, 2013 4:21 pm

Took the female to the vet today for a follow up exam and to talk more to the vet about the PCR test and/or possible ongoing tx for the frogs. They've been so generous with their time with no charge, so, I wanted to make sure to do the right thing and take the frog in so they could actually poke her and squeeze her for themselves. She has gained almost 2 grams! When I took her in the spring she weighed 7.9 grams. Today she weighs 9.8 grams. That's a lot of dart frog!

What we've decided to do is to give them another 3 day course (rather than the 30-40 day course that I think would be too much stress for them and me) wait a month or so, and, then submit cloacal and fecal samples to the lab in Florida for the PCR testing. I'll stop back here to give you all the heads up when the sample goes (or if something interesting happens in the meantime) and then again with the results.

Pics of her today. My little beast :lol:

Image

Image
Do you know where your frogs have been?

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Re: Positive for Coccidia - treatments ?

Postby CareyMendi » Fri Jul 18, 2014 7:37 pm

Hi, this is an interesting thread but no real resolution to it. Any updates? Was the PCR done?

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Re: Positive for Coccidia - treatments ?

Postby frogface » Sat Jul 19, 2014 8:54 am

No, unfortunately, it wasn't done. I had a stroke in December and ended up re-homing all of my darts except the Lorenzos. It was just too much to keep up with. The person who got this pair is aware of their history and I've given the vet's office permission to transfer their records to the new owner. Three tads morphed into beautiful froglets. They, too, went to someone who is aware of the parents history. Both new owners are experienced dart keepers. It will be interesting to see if the froglets have coccidia since the clutch was laid after the parent's treatment.

Keep in mind that the parents did not test positive so I can't say for certain that they had it. However, they did have symptoms that responded to treatment.
Do you know where your frogs have been?

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Re: Positive for Coccidia - treatments ?

Postby CareyMendi » Sat Jul 19, 2014 10:41 am

I'm very sorry to hear the circumstances surrounding the conclusion to this. Thank you for posting it though.


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