Pea Aphids - Anyone using them ?

Culturing Fruit Flies, other Insects. Supplements and Dusting.
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Philsuma
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Re: Pea Aphids - Anyone using them ?

Postby Philsuma » Mon Jul 30, 2012 4:26 pm

Stu....can I break out the: 'and Bob's yer Uncle" again....or is it too soon ? I love that one.

You guys are WAY ahead of us in Aphid usage. I don't know anyone that's even trying them here / stateside....

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Re: Pea Aphids - Anyone using them ?

Postby krakanax » Mon Jul 30, 2012 4:52 pm

Hi Stu,

Stu&Shaz wrote:cheers both,K if you backtrack i have another question.


I have close to no information about those liquid vitamins.
"My "breeder from the Netherland gave them to me last time I went there. The bottles don't have any labels on, he probably removed them ... I know he has been using them for years (with success). He told me that when I am out of it I should let him know and that he would send me some more. I can only tell you I dose 2ml per liter of water and then spray the frogs (...)


K.

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Re: Pea Aphids - Anyone using them ?

Postby Stu&Shaz » Tue Jul 31, 2012 2:59 pm

Philsuma wrote:Stu....can I break out the: 'and Bob's yer Uncle" again....or is it too soon ? I love that one.

You guys are WAY ahead of us in Aphid usage. I don't know anyone that's even trying them here / stateside....


Hey mat ya good bro,i'm not up to speed on the culturing Phil,but you have already seen why with what we can pull from the garden. I do think they are a super feeder though,especially if your trying to put weight on a frog,i know where i'm at phil proper novice learning the ropes,but you guys need to investigate this feeder,its such an asset.
Nah me old mucker you fire away dude, i'm sure we have a lot of others we can chuck you way.
If you do happen to read this,i'm sure you'll appreciate why i haven't been about so much,i'm going to rush off now we have in excess of 20 big charcoal springs i need to nail down tonight,water change time :D
best
Stu

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Re: Pea Aphids - Anyone using them ?

Postby Stu&Shaz » Tue Jul 31, 2012 3:06 pm

krakanax wrote:Hi Stu,

Stu&Shaz wrote:cheers both,K if you backtrack i have another question.


I have close to no information about those liquid vitamins.
"My "breeder from the Netherland gave them to me last time I went there. The bottles don't have any labels on, he probably removed them ... I know he has been using them for years (with success). He told me that when I am out of it I should let him know and that he would send me some more. I can only tell you I dose 2ml per liter of water and then spray the frogs (...)


K.

K eventhough you don't have details,i still appreciate your time,I'll do some digging,someone i speak to will know about this,maybe i could ask if you use the usual dusting regime with the ff,actually what is your vit regime,i know slightly off topic but if folks decide to use liquid vits for pea aphid them the big picture that is working for you is of note
thankyou
Stu

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Re: Pea Aphids - Anyone using them ?

Postby wohlerswi » Wed Aug 01, 2012 11:41 am

Phil- I went to the local health food store today and picked up some fava beans. They are fairly cheap in bulk too. I got a 5lb. bag of them for $6. When I was in the garden yesterday, I checked one of my trees that is usually getting getting its ass whopped by aphids. Well sure enough I can always count on those little buggers to be chomping away at my red twig Japanese maple, so I harvested some. I am going to start culturing them (and make an attempt to keep them going anyway) and will keep everyone that is interested over here in the states updated on my tribulations.
Will

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Re: Pea Aphids - Anyone using them ?

Postby Stu&Shaz » Wed Aug 01, 2012 5:47 pm

wohlerswi wrote:Phil- I went to the local health food store today and picked up some fava beans. They are fairly cheap in bulk too. I got a 5lb. bag of them for $6. When I was in the garden yesterday, I checked one of my trees that is usually getting getting its ass whopped by aphids. Well sure enough I can always count on those little buggers to be chomping away at my red twig Japanese maple, so I harvested some. I am going to start culturing them (and make an attempt to keep them going anyway) and will keep everyone that is interested over here in the states updated on my tribulations.
Will


Will good luck i'm sure there is much,as above, in getting an aphid that likes legumes,but not all aphid are species specific regarding their choice of host, this i can prove,as harvests last year lead to just one plant in viv being attacked,a non native wire vine.the plant survived the attack ran amuck escaped the viv,and produced the most amazing seed we have ever seen,as an off topic point of interest,lets hope they germinate
regards
Stu

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Re: Pea Aphids - Anyone using them ?

Postby rcteem » Fri Aug 03, 2012 1:29 am

wohlerswi wrote:Phil- I went to the local health food store today and picked up some fava beans. They are fairly cheap in bulk too. I got a 5lb. bag of them for $6. When I was in the garden yesterday, I checked one of my trees that is usually getting getting its ass whopped by aphids. Well sure enough I can always count on those little buggers to be chomping away at my red twig Japanese maple, so I harvested some. I am going to start culturing them (and make an attempt to keep them going anyway) and will keep everyone that is interested over here in the states updated on my tribulations.
Will


Good Luck! Ill be curious to see and hear your results

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Re: Pea Aphids - Anyone using them ?

Postby Philsuma » Sat Oct 20, 2012 9:55 am

Anyone having good luck /using a lot of these ?

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Re: Pea Aphids - Anyone using them ?

Postby RichFrye » Sat Oct 20, 2012 11:33 am

From the guys I have talked to that stay in the hobby, it seems a pain to long-term culture them. Not great 'bang for the buck', all things considered.
Darts with parasites are analogous to mixed tanks, there are no known benefits to the frogs with either.


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Re: Pea Aphids - Anyone using them ?

Postby Armson » Sat Oct 20, 2012 3:15 pm

I heard that they don't have a high nutritional value either.

-Byron

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Re: Pea Aphids - Anyone using them ?

Postby RichFrye » Sat Oct 20, 2012 4:50 pm

Armson wrote:I heard that they don't have a high nutritional value either.

-Byron

Right , that was part of the 'bang for the buck' I mentioned. Not actually bang for the dollar.
Darts with parasites are analogous to mixed tanks, there are no known benefits to the frogs with either.


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Re: Pea Aphids - Anyone using them ?

Postby krakanax » Mon Nov 12, 2012 4:26 pm

FF, springtails and aphids is what I feed my thumbnails with.
My Reticulatas are only fed springtails and aphids and they do just fine, had a first batch of eggs in September and they are not that old.

Even if aphids don't have a high nutritional value, food diversity is still a good thing for the frogs.
Culturing them is not that complicated, just avoid very hot temps in the summer.


K.

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Re: Pea Aphids - Anyone using them ?

Postby krakanax » Wed Nov 14, 2012 6:52 am

Hi,

I could be wrong but I suspect some people/stores are trying to discourage little breeders / beginners from getting into culturing aphids because it is not easy to ship them and to make money out of this insects. It is probably easier for them to sell FF and springtails as their shipping is somehow "easy".

So far I have not seen any document proving that aphids have a low nutritional value for dart frogs and that they are not worth spending some time on. If you have links, documents to share, please do so. I am quite interested.

Tia,

K.

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Re: Pea Aphids - Anyone using them ?

Postby RichFrye » Wed Nov 14, 2012 12:11 pm

krakanax wrote:Hi,

I could be wrong but I suspect some people/stores are trying to discourage little breeders / beginners from getting into culturing aphids because it is not easy to ship them and to make money out of this insects. It is probably easier for them to sell FF and springtails as their shipping is somehow "easy".

So far I have not seen any document proving that aphids have a low nutritional value for dart frogs and that they are not worth spending some time on. If you have links, documents to share, please do so. I am quite interested.

Tia,

K.


Hi Tia,
The stores or business driven hobbyists may see it as a conflict of interest to profess the benefits of pea aphids, but not the hobby.
If I remember correctly in that thread on Dendroboard you posted in last May , when you first got into aphids, there's no evidence that pea aphids are great nutritional feeders, but lots that says they are hard to get and keep going.
I think , without citing any scientific papers, the make up is high in carbohydrates and high in sugars which they must always excrete due to their diet. They are not able to be gut fed, so their main diet must always be quality, which includes the quality of the beans and peas cultured and their methods.

I know of several froggers who I would consider committed to the hobby, their frogs, and any new worthy food stuffs who have totally given up on pea aphids, which is not the case with the tons of other culturable frog foods.

But I'd ask this , since I could not come up with requested nutrition breakdowns. Can you please site some yourself? I have an idea that the reason not a lot of break-down exists is that they are either not scientifically considered high in value or they are hard to maintain , or a combo.

I approach any new husbandry tweak by searching out what others have accomplished before me. Let them do the heavy lifting first. What I've found over a number of years is that it would seem we can either culture bug-stuffs or generally have hitch-hikers established which cover whatever aphids contribute. And those other food stuffs are easier all around.
But, if there are people who have been successful for years and frog generations with their quality aphid production and I read a scientific break down as opposed to several pointing out high carb and sugar loads, I'm more than willing to reconsider pea aphids.

One question though. How do you feed just springtails and pea aphids (both non-dusted) and expect proper nutrition to be passed along when we've not read a nutritional break down here or other-wise yet?

Rich
Darts with parasites are analogous to mixed tanks, there are no known benefits to the frogs with either.


If tone is more important to you than content, you are at the wrong place.

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Re: Pea Aphids - Anyone using them ?

Postby krakanax » Wed Nov 14, 2012 1:19 pm

Hi Rich,

RichFrye wrote:Hi Tia,


"Tia" stands for "thanks in advance", that's definitely not my name ;) ;)


RichFrye wrote:If I remember correctly in that thread on Dendroboard you posted in last May , when you first got into aphids, there's no evidence that pea aphids are great nutritional feeders, but lots that says they are hard to get and keep going.
I think , without citing any scientific papers, the make up is high in carbohydrates and high in sugars which they must always excrete due to their diet. They are not able to be gut fed, so their main diet must always be quality, which includes the quality of the beans and peas cultured and their methods.


I am just a very ordinary and basic frogkeeper, I am no biologist, just a photographer interested in wildlife in general and dart frogs in particular. I just got back into the dart hobby after a 4 years break and found out that some "major" breeders in Netherland/Belgium/Germany go for aphids, something new to me, some of them doing so for years. I have no "hard" evidence that aphids are a great nutrition add to our frogs diet (so no document or scientific study) but I believe that if their keep going for it, it is that aphids are worth it for the frogs.
On an other hand a fruit fly is almost an empty shell and that's probably why you need / have to supplement vitamins.

Aphids, like any other culture, are not easy culturing on day 1.
It takes a little while to understand how it works, what mistakes to avoid. As always, the only way not to do mistake ... is to do just nothing. When I started FF and springtails 8 years ago, it took me a few weeks/months to get my cultures going the right way. If you have a little time and pay attention to your aphids cultures, if you have 30 minutes every 10 days, it is an easy task.


RichFrye wrote:I know of several froggers who I would consider committed to the hobby, their frogs, and any new worthy food stuffs who have totally given up on pea aphids, which is not the case with the tons of other culturable frog foods.


Well, it seems that on the other side of the pond some froggers think differently, at least some of them ;)


RichFrye wrote:But I'd ask this , since I could not come up with requested nutrition breakdowns. Can you please site some yourself? I have an idea that the reason not a lot of break-down exists is that they are either not scientifically considered high in value or they are hard to maintain , or a combo..


Already answered above ;)
I have no evidence one way or an other. I am a little naive so I tend to do like others but if you come up with evidence that aphids are toxic to our/my frogs, i will stop asap (as soon as possible).
I tend to believe that the more diverse the food, the better.


RichFrye wrote:One question though. How do you feed just springtails and pea aphids (both non-dusted) and expect proper nutrition to be passed along when we've not read a nutritional break down here or other-wise yet?


Liquid vitamins...
Don't you use some of them and spray religiously your darts? ;)


K. aka Antoine

ps: Antoine, that's my name ... not Tia :lol: :lol:

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Re: Pea Aphids - Anyone using them ?

Postby Philsuma » Wed Nov 14, 2012 1:27 pm

aphids are not used in the U.S. I know of no one that cultures them. I think the hassle of raising them turns people off, and then feeding and trying to supplement and /or dust them makes them hugely unattractive to impatient U.S hobbyists..lol.

I have not heard anything nutritionally or potentially bad (toxicity) regarding them either.

The U.S hobby uses superfine powdered supplementation for both separate Calcium and various Vitamins. I haven't heard of anyone using liquid products.

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Re: Pea Aphids - Anyone using them ?

Postby RichFrye » Wed Nov 14, 2012 1:37 pm

Hi Antoine,
I am one of the poster children for suggesting varied diet for our frogs, so I know where you are coming from. It's also the reason I started this thread two and a half years ago. :wink:
I think at times the EU actually enjoys culturing and sweeping bugs almost as much as the darts themselves. Me, not so much. It's a pain at times.
A couple points. I'd not rely on springtails , unknown liquids and aphids for the sole diet of any frog I owed, personally. Springtails being the only known benefit from the mix, and that being predominantly calcium. Aphids being high in sugars and carbs... But, I would have no problems mixing some aphids into my feeding rotation (even if they turned out to be analogous to potato chips and candy bars...kids love 'em) if they were easier and more reliably long term cultivated. For me personally they are not easy or reliably long benefiting.

Rich
Darts with parasites are analogous to mixed tanks, there are no known benefits to the frogs with either.


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Re: Pea Aphids - Anyone using them ?

Postby krakanax » Wed Nov 14, 2012 1:42 pm

Hi Phil,

I do not dust my aphids but I know some people who do so :shock:
Never tried it but I may give it a try pretty soon. If it works out fine, I may give it up on fruit flies as it is a real pita to culture. Most of all ... it stinks! :lol: :lol:
That's my opinion, experience, and once again I am no expert ;) ;)


K.

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Re: Pea Aphids - Anyone using them ?

Postby DrNick » Sun Nov 18, 2012 2:50 am

When I feed I just tip whatever variety of feeder insects I have to hand (flies, aphids, milkweed bugs, springtails, weevils etc.) into a tub of supplement, into another tub to remove excess dust and then throw them in the vivs.... The only discrimination comes in making sure the smaller frogs are fed before hydei and bean weevils are added to the mix!

On that basis I have no idea if the aphids are beneficial, but I am very confident that they differ in composition to ffs and weavils and it is that variety that is important to me - for one, they are bright green and this is only the case if they feed on bright green plants, so there is clearly significant chlorophyll and probably other pigments entering the frog diet with aphids that are not supplied by any other feeder insect we culture. The carb load is not problematic unless you use them to the exclusion of all other foods.

The only issue therefore seems to be whether or not you can be bothered adding another set of cultures to the stockpile. This is where I'm a bit lost as, to be honest, pea aphids have been BY FAR the most productive and reliable feeder insect I have used. Even more so than melanogaster. I consider them to be my 'fall back'.... I think dodgy stock cultures and keeping them too warm (shouldn't really be kept much over 15C) are the main issues for many people.

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Re: Pea Aphids - Anyone using them ?

Postby RichFrye » Sun Nov 18, 2012 9:28 am

I think one differences between us here in certain areas of The States and the weather over there , pertaining to culturing aphids may be a bit more stability in humidity.
My basement here in the winter is about 35% RH, but in the summer it's as high as 70%. I have hear time and again that too high or low RH and you get crashes. Maintaining a constant RH here for me is impossible , or at least will not be catered to for aphid culturing.
Darts with parasites are analogous to mixed tanks, there are no known benefits to the frogs with either.


If tone is more important to you than content, you are at the wrong place.

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