Dart Frogs 'Best kept in pairs only" advice ?

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Frogopolis
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Re: Dart Frogs 'Best kept in pairs only" advice ?

Postby Frogopolis » Fri Jan 16, 2015 3:13 am

Philsuma wrote:But they all look so cute and cuddly...kermit the frog could never hurt another frog!


There is this video that may still be floating around YouTube somewhere and it shows an adult Azureus and CR Auratus fighting. Like I said before, it is very disturbing because you don't think of frogs as an aggressive animal. The worst part is that in the comments it was stated that those frogs were in an exhibit in a zoo.

And this is a major point of not mixing...In the wild those two frogs would not come into contact with each other as they are from completely different countries.

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Re: Dart Frogs 'Best kept in pairs only" advice ?

Postby frogfreak » Fri Jan 16, 2015 6:34 am

Frogopolis wrote:Seeing those females fighting was really disturbing. Someone who is interested in Tincs should buy three or four froglets or juveniles and raise them up together and let them pair off and remove the others from the pair and either keep them or sell them.


YOU may find it really disturbing. Others may find it interesting, intriguing, fascinating, natural and even, dare I say, exciting.

Please don't preach about how people should raise their Tincs. There's more than one way to skin a cat, so to speak. Pairs only isn't the only way to raise them and is completely unnatural as well. They would never "pair off" in the wild...So, tell me again why keeping them just as unnatural (in groups) is a bad thing?

These are not and never will be wild animals ever again.
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Re: Dart Frogs 'Best kept in pairs only" advice ?

Postby Philsuma » Fri Jan 16, 2015 9:21 am

Glenn,

I totally 'get' what you are trying to do with your experience in a counter point, but we need to remember that hordes of newbies will read all these archived posts and they won't nessa get that you are as experienced with Tinc groups, as we know you are. The newbies are constantly looking for 'permission' and when they find it - look out.

Even though some frogs may be F9 CB, they still will display and act with many of the social tendencies of their wild brethren. I don't believe that Safe Frog or whomever can breed-out all the wild traits and leave us with puppy dog frogs.

With experience, then sure, tincs can be house in multiple groups and sex ratios.

If someone is new and tincs are 1st or even 2nd frogs, then no...I would absolutely tell them to stick to a pair.

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Re: Dart Frogs 'Best kept in pairs only" advice ?

Postby frogfreak » Fri Jan 16, 2015 9:47 am

Philsuma wrote:Glenn,

If someone is new and tincs are 1st or even 2nd frogs, then no...I would absolutely tell them to stick to a pair.


I agree with you on this, Phil. But, what I see is blanket statements that have been said for years. And, it's just not true.

I also see blanket statements made about a lot of other things regarding the way we keep our frogs, feeders and such. It wasn't that long ago that a sealed glass box was the way to go and now many are using some sort of ventilation. People still need to experiment. The hobby is still in it's infancy IMO.
Glenn

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Re: Dart Frogs 'Best kept in pairs only" advice ?

Postby frogfreak » Fri Jan 16, 2015 9:58 am

With that being said, are we just supposed to keep things to ourselves if we're having success with something "outside of the norm?"

Where to do exchange ideas if we're in fear of a newb getting ahold of said information?

Is it time for a 3+ year area? :wink:
Glenn

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Re: Dart Frogs 'Best kept in pairs only" advice ?

Postby Philsuma » Fri Jan 16, 2015 11:44 am

Glenn, I think the 'sweet spot' in terms of best practice dart frog husbandry is to present the information, like you do, but to always attach a caveat to it - like 'best attempted by experienced hobbyists' or ' not for first frog owners or new hobbyists'.

This is the same argument for the 'mixing crowd' championed by Jellyman who is coincidentally noticeably absent from the forums for a year or so. "How are new people going to learn, if we don't help them or tell them to try new things'?

It is, admittedly, a tough question to provide a succinct answer to. The overriding point that I have to make, is that experimentation and forging ahead is ok and fine with goods and such, but these are live animals.

There was a guy who traveled 3 hours to my frog room for pumilio and I sent him home with none. He was a newbie and did not impress me enough with what he had in terms of enclosure and pre-care. Nice guy, but I did not want to risk my animals until he had done more research and had better temporary enclosures ect.

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Re: Dart Frogs 'Best kept in pairs only" advice ?

Postby frogfreak » Fri Jan 16, 2015 5:43 pm

Even by posting "the sweet spot" manner it won't deter newbs from trying it.

Philsuma wrote:The overriding point that I have to make, is that experimentation and forging ahead is ok and fine with goods and such, but these are live animals.


Phil, you know me and in no way shape or form was any frog under duress. If I saw that they would immediately be separated. Aggression is natural and animals compete for mates, territories, food, etc.

Have 3 dogs in a home? Only 1 is the alpha and the others fall into line...
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Re: Dart Frogs 'Best kept in pairs only" advice ?

Postby Philsuma » Fri Jan 16, 2015 8:30 pm

You, I trust.

Some random newbie, not so much.

Frogs are frogs. They don't really behave exactly or even close to dogs IMO.

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Re: Dart Frogs 'Best kept in pairs only" advice ?

Postby frogfreak » Sat Jan 17, 2015 10:50 am

Philsuma wrote:Frogs are frogs. They don't really behave exactly or even close to dogs IMO.


True, but they can be used as an example.

A person with say 3 dogs in their home that tries to introduce a new one doesn't always work.
Glenn

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Re: Dart Frogs 'Best kept in pairs only" advice ?

Postby Stu&Shaz » Sat Feb 14, 2015 3:12 pm

Ha I get both of you here,re the dog :lol: s.

Guys the words that mean the most here were uttered by Phil I think,just read the whole thread off the bat. Some frogs will get on just like people,some will never get on,just like us,for me this is the truism!! It equate too a new guy needing to look hard and watch his/sorry ladies her new stock. It matters not that frogs behave nowt like us or dogs, what matters is the opening of the mind of the newer guy. F0or me whom massively still considers my self learning ( a complete novice ),this phrase paints the most accurate picture to a new guy. I don't think we should blinker them with rules,I think we should open eyes to what could be. Within that is the constant need to watch the animals she :wink: wanted to buy and care for.

I'd also say this Phil,all the caviats in the world wont help a new guy that has his eyes closed to his frogs. The new guy that we really don't need to help,but give to regardless,has his eyes open bloody wide to what his frogs are doing,he wanted them,he read up,he asked the questions, he already has learnt what could potentially happen,but more than all this he watches.

Best kept in pairs, becomes something different to that guy,as he'll learn I can do this with these individuals and def can't with another group of individuals. For me the need to watch is the biggest asset,all the rules and info in the world didn't stop me putting 6 pums together,all the rules in the world didn't change the fact that at one stage I had 4 males all living in peace together plus successful breeding going on. But the reading and the help given meant I knew before hand of consequences and by god I was looking for something to go wrong. Not only was I looking and expecting something to go wrong,but also I was prepared. New homes were there in place set up ready for it all went tits up,it just never happened !!

So it matters not what or which analogy we use to get a point over,be it people dogs religion or hell knows what else,what matters is a given new guy has help and how that guy evaluates that help and applies this to da froggies. Rules to be broken? Well it is human nature, we are all going there. Ahh but the need to look hard...watch like a hawk,instill that in the next guy,show him what can happen and empower him with this, I'll betcha you'll get another dart addict,if he cares.

There is a philosophy behind this mad man's ravings,encouragement,not bashing,education,not vilification and above all else look hard look hard and anything is possible . Why because the frogs are our teacher,there isn't anyone/thing better ,all us folks do is pass on what we see, our little experiences. Lets face it they are little experiences,don't matter how big the collection,we each have experience of a few individuals of a species(or morph, what ever, unimportant). Pass forward all frogs are individual this might happen that might happen I have seen this or that, this is possible with this morph,this might work with that frog,but by god watch the buggers!! And maybe, just maybe, this empowerment might make this new keeper into the guy we all covet so much.

That guy is a long term dart keeper

That guy is what my hobby,your hobby Phil,your hobby Glenn desparately needs,now possibly more than ever !!!

belucky both of ya,sorry to derail

bloody brits huh :lol:

Stu

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Frogman955
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Re: Dart Frogs 'Best kept in pairs only" advice ?

Postby Frogman955 » Sun Feb 15, 2015 2:17 pm

An interesting thread this.
For some time now I`ve been using a guide that I made up for newbies to save having to keep repeating myself.
Read through it and let me know what you think.
>>>>>>>>>>
How many Dart Frogs In A Vivarium

This is not a guide to setting up a viv for dart frogs, nor is it a guide to how your viv should be set up.
It is solely a guide to let you know what size or shape of viv is needed for a particular size or type of dart frog, or how many frogs can be kept in a particular size of viv.

When setting up a viv for dart frogs you have to consider several things.
Which frogs do you want and which kind of viv layout do you want/need for them.
You have also to consider what size of viv you require for a particular frog.
Next, do you have room for this particular viv.

The Tinctorious group of frogs consists of large frogs with an average body length of about 50mm.
It is a large group with different morph names such as Azureus, Citronella, Regina, Matecho, Atachi Bakka, Giant Saul, Oyapok, Patricia, Sipilawini and many more.

There are many other frogs with a similar body size but which have completely different requirements.

One such frog is Phyllobates Terribilis of which you get 3 morphs, Mints, Orange and Yellow.

Rule of thumb is that Tincs can be kept in a viv 45x45x45cm minimum.
In this size of viv you could keep a pair or, at a push a trio.
Ultimately it would be better if you could go for a longer viv, ie 60cm or 90cm long to give them more ground area.
These frogs do like to climb so don`t be afraid to create different levels for them which will give them more floor space without the need for getting a larger viv.
A very important thing to remember is that with Tincs, 2 females will usually fight to the death. So it is best to keep only a sexed pair or a trio of 2 males to 1 female.

Leucomelas are one of the commonest frogs for experienced keepers as well as beginners.
Minimum viv requirements are similar to Tincs since Leucs are just slightly smaller.
The biggest difference between Leucs and Tincs is that Leucs are a communal frog and you can safely keep as many as you want together.
But, you must bear in mind that they mustn`t be overcrowded. They do after all need some personal space so take that into account.
Rule of thumb, start with a 45cm cube for a trio and for 4 go to 60cm long.
For each extra frog add a minimum of 10cm in length.
This would theoretically mean for 8 frogs you`d need a viv 100cm long.
Although this may seem crowded they should get on well together as long as they have their own space within the viv, so create plenty hiding places for them under logs etc.
With Leucs it is very important to create higher levels as they really love to climb.
A large water dish or a pool would be good for Leucs too as unlike a lot of other dart frogs they just love water, but ALWAYS make sure they can easily get out.


Terribilis are great frogs for beginners or experienced keepers alike.
Being a large frog they need a bit of room, but you would be okay with the same viv size as for Leucs.
I have found that Terribs do actually like to climb, although not as much as Leucs.
Extra levels won`t go amiss though and easy access to them would help.
Something like a "fallen" branch for them to go up would be fine.
They can and do climb up glass but there`s no harm in making life easier for them.
Terribs can easily be kept in large groups so make sure they have plenty of places where they can get some alone time if they need it.

Pumilio are awesome frogs to have and unlike some of the stories going around are actually an easy frog to keep.
The difficulty is in breeding them, but i`m not going into that here.
A pair of Pumilio can be kept in a 40x40x40 viv but as they are a climbing frog this is not the best size for them.
Remember that in the wild they`ll take their tadpoles more than 100ft up a tree to put them in a brom, so 40cm is not exactly to their requirements.
Most keepers use 60cm tall or more, and this should really be considered as minimum.
As a rule Pumilio should be kept in pairs but there are some who claim to have had success with keeping several pairs together.
Males will fight with each other and females also fight.
If you want a trio then go for 1 male with 2 females as there should be less aggression this way.
So realistically minimum viv size is 40x40x60.

Thumbnails like Ranitomeya for example are smaller than Pums and as such might get away with less space.
The truth is though that they are only slightly smaller so realistically should have the same amount of space as for Pums.
So 40x40x60 is a good size for them.
<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<
Anyway I have found that there are no hard and fast rules about which frogs will get on as like was mentioned earlier "frogs are like people".
I had a trio of Azureus which had been kept together from the day I got them and they got on just great and bred with no bother.
I was always under the impression that I had 2 males and 1 female.
Suddenly just a few months back I`m seeing aggression.
Was I seeing 2 males fighting it out or was I seeing 2 females squaring up?
Although I`m still not entirely sure I think I was just seeing a horny female trying to breed, but unfortunately she killed that poor frog as he got stressed out and died.
I had a trio of Pumilio Cauchero and saw the 2 females fighting and having a proper roll around on the viv floor, but they just got on with things and bred like rabbits.
I had a group of 5 Bastis in a 118 US gallon viv, 2 males and 3 females.
The 2 males are now one because one killed the other.
Those 4 that were left are now in a smaller viv about 38 US gallons and they get on great.
I have never seen any fighting between the females.
My Salt Creeks, I`ve seen fighting male on male, female on female, and male on female or vice versa.
Leucs ? I have seen the odd argument but I`ve never seen anything to concern me, and hopefully that will remain true as I plan on increasing the group size from 5 to nearer 10.
Lastly, I had a group of 4 Citronella which were getting on really well and they had been together since April last year.
A month ago one was looking poorly and unfortunately it died.
But I had never seen anything going on so thought nothing more about it.
Then last week I`m seeing 2 of them going at it hammer and tongs.
This was 2 males fighting over a female, so of course I`ve had to separate them.
To sum up I have different frogs all showing different behaviours and leaving me as puzzled as I ever was.
I was today talking to a mate about going down the 2 to a viv route with most of them, Pums and Tincs that is.
So I`ll be sitting here thinking hard about it.


Mike

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Philsuma
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Re: Dart Frogs 'Best kept in pairs only" advice ?

Postby Philsuma » Sun Feb 15, 2015 2:44 pm

What a great post Mike - thanks so much!

Some of the time, two pumilio males will get along - one being submissive, same with a couple Tinc females. This behaviour is not the norm though. More often than not, it is the duty of more experienced hobbyists to suggest 'best practice' husbandry and not encourage newer hobbyists to push the envelope or think to much outside the box.

If the new hobbyists 'stick' after a few years and form enough experience and knowledge that they want to try and form odd pairings and groups, then THAT'S the time to do it.

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Frogman955
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Re: Dart Frogs 'Best kept in pairs only" advice ?

Postby Frogman955 » Fri Mar 04, 2016 6:41 pm

Thanks Phil.
This is where Stu and I are similar, we sit and watch whats going on.
It is an advantage having all my vivs in the livingroom where I can see at a glance whats going on.
All I need to do is sit here with my small binoculars and watch them as I`m about 18 feet away from the main bank of vivs.
Saves me from disturbing them.
The ONLY frogs I`ve seen absolutely no aggression with has been my Terribs.
I will no longer put 2 male Pums together.
I have made the decision to keep Tincs in pairs only.
And the jury is still out on the Pums.
I have 4 BriBri which I always thought were all females, until 2 years on I found a froglet in the viv.
I`ve never heard any calling at all.
Since then I have seen wrestling going on, but not yet managed to see if it`s males or females fighting.
Past experience tells me it could be both so I`m thinking of splitting the group and selling one pair off.

Mike


Last bumped by Philsuma on Fri Mar 04, 2016 6:41 pm.


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