Stu & Shaz's Dart Frog Room

Your Full Tank Shot (FTS).....or not. Frog Room pics.
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Re: Stu & Shaz's Dart Frog Room

Postby Stu&Shaz » Tue Jun 03, 2014 3:58 pm

Seen as it;s just Jim Diane and you Phil, this is for you guys,all of us might never see this again including me

Just a little of the step by step I'm going through with a red head hitrionica reared by me. I have ,sorry WE have seen hunting behaviour but never that strike and kill that puts one out of one's misery,look it might all be gone tomorrow,but today his tummy is bigger and looks like this.

Please live little guy

Image

bring it on

Stu

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Re: Stu & Shaz's Dart Frog Room

Postby Chuck Lawson » Tue Jun 03, 2014 4:05 pm

Looks awesome, Stu! Fingers crossed...

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Re: Stu & Shaz's Dart Frog Room

Postby Philsuma » Tue Jun 03, 2014 4:30 pm

Sometimes it's 'Failure to Thrive' and they just don't make it. It sometimes seems like some froglets are retarded for lack of a better word, and just can't seem to feed correctly.

That said, Your particular froglet LOOKS good and fat!

Be sure to add some extra springtails and plenty of leaf litter. It seems that if they can hide or feel safe, they have higher chances.

Bueno suerte !

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Re: Stu & Shaz's Dart Frog Room

Postby Stu&Shaz » Tue Jun 03, 2014 5:47 pm

Philsuma wrote:Sometimes it's 'Failure to Thrive' and they just don't make it. It sometimes seems like some froglets are retarded for lack of a better word, and just can't seem to feed correctly.

That said, Your particular froglet LOOKS good and fat!

Be sure to add some extra springtails and plenty of leaf litter. It seems that if they can hide or feel safe, they have higher chances.

Bueno suerte !



It's me bro ,it's embarassing but it's me.I've actually had to pull food out. :oops:

Phil my command of eng land plus a cross atlantic divide is making me think you haven't got this. This is a frog that never saw his mum I've reared him not his mother that's why he's a bit special that's why you might have never seen this before. You have pictures above of 3 tads that I have reared,not in viv not fed oophaga eggs not fed mums eggs. My mum is a young frog I now know how much they do,I worried she would burn out feeding all these eggs she laid,so I stole some and used Rob's wisdom. It's not really something I went for,it happened,but they are still here. This is the first through morphout and I believe feeding as you say,little guy's weight is good.

That's why i'm posting step by step mate,they simply should not be here now,. Phil i'm working out video stuff I'm a retard with it,but these guys think I'm mum,they dance for me at feeding time,i'm not really worried about them needing to hide they know my voice already.

Ahh buddy I managed a video,I've no idea how to even get it out of the camera,during which I half mumbled "dinner time",I was trying not to speak,but the frogger came out :oops: . I have that tad reacting to the guy that fed him for months on film. It's so lame but so special. It's isn't the fact that they are large oophaga that floats my boat, it's the fact its a bloody tadpole that's worked out exactly who feeds him and that guy is human and it's associating my voice with food.

Ha tell ya'll what is really wonderful guys,on one hand we might just pull off something nuts,with some large oophaga,but on the other,we are both raving like bloody lunatics waiting for our first azzie kids to pop front legs. We are still both running into the frog room half asleep each morning hoping the first has got there,see it isn't the so called special frogs it's just simply THE FROGS

When we loose that child like joy of a leuc pile up like we had today or any of the simple things it will be time to stop,got a hunch that might be a while coming 8)

Chuck,thanks , wouldn't it be cool to see him grow up now after all the time we've spent trying our best for him,most of it utterly without hope. They keep bewildering me Chuck,they just can't be here,but they still are

best

Stu

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Re: Stu & Shaz's Dart Frog Room

Postby Chuck Lawson » Tue Jun 03, 2014 6:19 pm

Stu&Shaz wrote:
Philsuma wrote:Chuck,thanks , wouldn't it be cool to see him grow up now after all the time we've spent trying our best for him,most of it utterly without hope. They keep bewildering me Chuck,they just can't be here,but they still are


As so many times in history, conventional wisdom ultimately doesn't stand a chance against a determined and persistent Englishman. :-)

I've got a good feeling about this little guy, but even if worse comes to worse, you've learned a lot and will get that much farther with the next one.

tl;dr -- When you get this herd built up enough to distribute, please put me on the waiting list :mrgreen:

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Re: Stu & Shaz's Dart Frog Room

Postby Stu&Shaz » Thu Jun 05, 2014 12:30 pm

Deeply kind Chuck I'm really not worthy of such kindness. We just love them and try hard for them. It's one of those: every single day brings a little more hope senarios,he's cool mate,so far so good. Beyond that the second is ootw and looks good too. Ahh bless I mentioned they know me,the picture that follows says it all. When all our young red heads leave the water they are jumpy,one sudden movement and back in the water they go,one can see they might be vunerable and this is as it should be. This little guy just sat there while I tried in vein to not make a noise as I removed the lid to his tub,I made a complete hash of it,but talked to him the whole time he ducked a bit then settled and sat back up,calm as you like bless him.Oh buddy note colour,look hard in the dark and one sees bronze to come though,they all seem to carry this bronze at first then it gradually mellows down to the yellow of adults,tis a treat to watch

Image


What it's really starting to look like though is this isn't a one off fluke,I still haven't seen the first feed,but the second looks right and the third has got at least one front leg

Image


It's been an amazing experience Chuck,most of what I've learned from this is almost subconcious,it's how I am I guess. What I would say though is I've thought deeply about the implications and debated with some friends about their views on the ethics of such things as the implication on their parental care of their kids, if, heaven forbid we do rear them. Although I'm a light hearted guy I think one really should stop and ponder . I think I'll hold these and if things bode well find out if there is any fall out,I don't really think there is any other way morally to handle this, for me anyway. There are other complex facets revolving around this, I feel obligated to post about the rearing method ,ie be honest about what I have done,by the same token I'd hate to see folks trying this for dollar, I would loath that,this is about that joy of keeping and learning about frogs. It's thrown many questions up for me to ponder such as how is water quality maintained in the parental viv and I've seen things like the tad dance which are almost impossible to see in viv

Anyway speaking of joy, here are some of our much longer for, monster :lol: , azzie tads,again like the atachis they are fantastic hunters,reared on a good amount of live wild grub plus all the other man made stuff. and to finish up Bonnie Blue looking somewhat svelt, their mum. We have pulled a few clutches now and all are in the water,so rations are being pulled back a touch viv dried up a notch and it's looks like they have stopped. Sorry the pics are so dark ,but if one looks hard one can just see the first traces of blue
Image

Image

Image

Ha this one's been a long time coming!!

Next to crack is the summersi,now in viv after a goodly QT they are in the disappearing stage at present,I've been trying not to worry,but it's hard, when you can't see them. It's not like I don't know the crack either,but it's still hard :roll: Yesterday we had torrents of rain here all day,Shaz greeted me when I got back with I can see two summersi and another one is calling that I can't see,so maybe just maybe we will crack the long awaited young frog soon.

Oh mate beyond the lovely post,cheers for the wishes towards me new mate, "good feeling" I'll take that,and keep nowt for me.LMAO


Oh yeah give me a while bro and come get :wink: I have much to to do first though I have to have more than one pair breeding and two guys to think of whom only have males
best

Stu

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Re: Stu & Shaz's Dart Frog Room

Postby Corndrunk » Thu Jun 05, 2014 2:16 pm

Beautiful frogs Stu!

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Re: Stu & Shaz's Dart Frog Room

Postby Chuck Lawson » Thu Jun 05, 2014 3:45 pm

Stu&Shaz wrote:It's been an amazing experience Chuck,most of what I've learned from this is almost subconcious,it's how I am I guess. What I would say though is I've thought deeply about the implications and debated with some friends about their views on the ethics of such things as the implication on their parental care of their kids, if, heaven forbid we do rear them. Although I'm a light hearted guy I think one really should stop and ponder . I think I'll hold these and if things bode well find out if there is any fall out,I don't really think there is any other way morally to handle this, for me anyway. There are other complex facets revolving around this, I feel obligated to post about the rearing method ,ie be honest about what I have done,by the same token I'd hate to see folks trying this for dollar, I would loath that,this is about that joy of keeping and learning about frogs. It's thrown many questions up for me to ponder such as how is water quality maintained in the parental viv and I've seen things like the tad dance which are almost impossible to see in viv


There's kind of two sides to it, I guess. First, it's worth doing it for the learning (as much as for love of the animals), and anything that improves the general knowledge of husbandry of these guys is on the side of the angels. The second (if I'm understanding your concern correctly) is whether the "natural" parental behavior is entirely instinctive, or learned. There's no real way to know this unless/until you get a batch of hand reared frogs to breed, and see what they do - but either way it falls, you've still learned something and added much to the general knowledge of how to care for these guys.

None of which diminishes how far you've come already -- you've kept them alive, you've got them to breed, and you've got juvies on the ground; I've got a good feeling that these guys are going to go all the way (knocking on wood). But regardless, you're already miles ahead of many of us (certainly me) at this point!

Stu&Shaz wrote:Oh yeah give me a while bro and come get :wink: I have much to to do first though I have to have more than one pair breeding and two guys to think of whom only have males

Let me know when to buy tickets :mrgreen:

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Re: Stu & Shaz's Dart Frog Room

Postby Stu&Shaz » Thu Jun 05, 2014 4:36 pm

Corndrunk wrote:Beautiful frogs Stu!

Aaron


Thanks Aaron,wow canuckle land,you are close to Glenn(frogfreak) are you not,I'm sure(ish) he is Ontario,he'll slap me in a mo and say dude I'm miles away. Aaron he's cool go see and learn if not already,he won't thank me for this ,but I admire that dude,and he'll have to deal with it. :lol:

take care mate

Stu

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Re: Stu & Shaz's Dart Frog Room

Postby Stu&Shaz » Thu Jun 05, 2014 5:37 pm

Chuck Lawson wrote:
Stu&Shaz wrote:It's been an amazing experience Chuck,most of what I've learned from this is almost subconcious,it's how I am I guess. What I would say though is I've thought deeply about the implications and debated with some friends about their views on the ethics of such things as the implication on their parental care of their kids, if, heaven forbid we do rear them. Although I'm a light hearted guy I think one really should stop and ponder . I think I'll hold these and if things bode well find out if there is any fall out,I don't really think there is any other way morally to handle this, for me anyway. There are other complex facets revolving around this, I feel obligated to post about the rearing method ,ie be honest about what I have done,by the same token I'd hate to see folks trying this for dollar, I would loath that,this is about that joy of keeping and learning about frogs. It's thrown many questions up for me to ponder such as how is water quality maintained in the parental viv and I've seen things like the tad dance which are almost impossible to see in viv


There's kind of two sides to it, I guess. First, it's worth doing it for the learning (as much as for love of the animals), and anything that improves the general knowledge of husbandry of these guys is on the side of the angels. The second (if I'm understanding your concern correctly) is whether the "natural" parental behavior is entirely instinctive, or learned. There's no real way to know this unless/until you get a batch of hand reared frogs to breed, and see what they do - but either way it falls, you've still learned something and added much to the general knowledge of how to care for these guys.

None of which diminishes how far you've come already -- you've kept them alive, you've got them to breed, and you've got juvies on the ground; I've got a good feeling that these guys are going to go all the way (knocking on wood). But regardless, you're already miles ahead of many of us (certainly me) at this point!

Stu&Shaz wrote:Oh yeah give me a while bro and come get :wink: I have much to to do first though I have to have more than one pair breeding and two guys to think of whom only have males

Let me know when to buy tickets :mrgreen:


Chuck you have read me right, I am agonising over an effect on their natural parental abilities. There is only one way to find out. suck it and see...rear these hope for a pair and follow this up. I suspect the female to be the most dominant player,but as always conjecture.
I didn't keep them all alive my friend,but we were given a chance and got suprmemely lucky to have a pair. The guys that sold to us dendroworks treated us beyond what a frogger could hope for,replacing a frog they had no cause to do so.

The kind words are fabulous mate,again I'm not that guy,I'm a humble beginner I'll be him for a long time yet buddy,I have much to learn. I don't think it would be fair to qualify me/us as something different because someone else was kind to us and gave us a chance ,which was followed by luck. But I do think it important to try and share possibilities with others even if they fail.

I will honour that last statement, absolutely, but you guys know how to ship,we don't hence come get .

Really though I want Ivan (Teseros) to get these to you in America,that's a goal worth striving for. If I could inspire someone to support him with these pictures and this story,ahh mate wouldn't that be cool. I've pretty much tried all means of cajoling over here mate,but came up wanting. But a stubborn english guy,well they just don't go away :lol: ,Many facets to this post :wink:
best always
Stu

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Re: Stu & Shaz's Dart Frog Room

Postby Chuck Lawson » Thu Jun 05, 2014 6:35 pm

lol.. I'll find an excuse to go to the UK one of these days :-)

I don't think you've really got anything to agonize over in this generation -- if the hand reared ones don't end up having a parental instinct, then at worst you've got a generation of frogs that otherwise wouldn't have been here; a fine thing any way you slice it. Now if you decide to hand-rear -their- offspring, then you're making a moral decision (and not necessarily a wrong one; there are any number of domesticated species (and breeds of species) that essentially can't reproduce without human intervention; but they do become inarguably domesticated at that point. I'm fine with that too, but then again, I used to breed show cats :) ).

I'm in hopes that we'll see some new above-board importation too; in the meantime, there are still a few of the old lines around (so I'm told ;-) ), but I'm going to watch you blaze a trail awhile longer before I venture any deeper in Oophaga than my lowly pumilios :-)

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Re: Stu & Shaz's Dart Frog Room

Postby joneill809 » Thu Jun 05, 2014 8:42 pm

Lovely Stu! Impressive work with the histos and glad to see your azzies producing! Good luck with the summersi - your collection is really incredible.
Jim from Austin please contact me if you are willing to trade offspring from:
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http://www.oneillscrossing.com/dart-frogs/

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Re: Stu & Shaz's Dart Frog Room

Postby Stu&Shaz » Fri Jun 06, 2014 5:39 pm

Chuck Lawson wrote:lol.. I'll find an excuse to go to the UK one of these days :-)

I don't think you've really got anything to agonize over in this generation -- if the hand reared ones don't end up having a parental instinct, then at worst you've got a generation of frogs that otherwise wouldn't have been here; a fine thing any way you slice it. Now if you decide to hand-rear -their- offspring, then you're making a moral decision (and not necessarily a wrong one; there are any number of domesticated species (and breeds of species) that essentially can't reproduce without human intervention; but they do become inarguably domesticated at that point. I'm fine with that too, but then again, I used to breed show cats :) ).

I'm in hopes that we'll see some new above-board importation too; in the meantime, there are still a few of the old lines around (so I'm told ;-) ), but I'm going to watch you blaze a trail awhile longer before I venture any deeper in Oophaga than my lowly pumilios :-)

Ahh hell I'll give you an excuse,and send ya back with spots before your eye's for good measure :wink: :lol: .

Chuck I'm a bird guy,specifically rare breeds of poultry were my lively hood for a while,say 250 breeds of chicken 30 plus of duck,turks geese you name it,so I utterly understand what you're saying.

For me ,well i wouldn't want to breed parental care out. These redheads have different calls,some are used in breeding,that's just the male side. That said,I can't see one generation removing this,it's been a long time getting here for them. I think the parental side is intrinsic to the joy of keeping , plus it's part of them. The flip to that is what I've seen actually rearing by hand,it almost gives me better chances of success in viv.I just know more now,even if I can't really express it. They are bright frogs Chuck,bot colour wise,but intelligence,I can't qualify it really. I'm really not sure whether it is possible for them to imprint on a mother like say a goose would,but traces of that are already posted above,I can see they know me,how that might manifest it's self,I'm unsure. Parental care stops with these at morphout,I guess,it doesn't with a goose!! So that bond shouldn't be as strong,so hopefully as adults,if they get there ,they do what thy do and will be attracted to their own kind,not me.
Chuck I talk incessantly to all our froggies,I'm sure many will think me mad,but for me it's a cornerstone of husbandary. they all know me,it alliviates stress,ahh dad's here in their eyes is massively different to ahh that big fella might kill me. Some species take a long time to assimilate this,say the summersi,others get it quicker. The red heads are on the quick side,pretty damn bold given time,oh and who would have thought they move just like a mystie. So where I'm going with this is I don't think this first generation will have any parental care problems,just got to know me a hell of a lot sooner,but that is complete conjecture!!

Ahh mate lowly pums,ain't it the coolest thing: I have bloody nemerteans in my RFB viv. So I feed springtails by the shovel load,I say dinner time,tiny red faces pop out,from under leaves out of axils,not all are this bold,but a goodly few,it's all facets of the same hobby,just different frogs.

Both guys are good by the way

Chuck it's been a blast talking to you about all this,I love the open point of view you have,it's also thought provoking for me

. It would be special to see more large oophaga out there I really want that we need a legit outcross here :oops: Beyond that a chance at stopping smuggling a chance at habitat being secured and some dosh for local folks whom then get to have a tangible reason to care for their habitat. I have endless time for this guy Ivan he's my froggy hero,that's sommit,never had one of those

thank YOU sir

Stu

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Re: Stu & Shaz's Dart Frog Room

Postby Stu&Shaz » Fri Jun 06, 2014 5:59 pm

joneill809 wrote:Lovely Stu! Impressive work with the histos and glad to see your azzies producing! Good luck with the summersi - your collection is really incredible.



Hey Jim how are you mate?

What can I say I want more,more space bigger vivs(just a couple more frogs he said in a whisper :lol: ) It's building slow but sure Jim,if one goes too quick the burn out clobbers ya,but slow is cool we adapt without too much pressure learn slow enough to have a real chance of not getting overwhelmed.

Ahh jim I look after a guy with some hard core problems,including a bran injury,had him here today,his fav colour is blue,blue frogs blue tads,he stood mesmerized 8)

Thanks buddy for always dropping by to see what malarky has gone on, it's really appreciated I do notice,even though time is short.
How does one get here Jim it's nuts, I 'll take all wishes on the summersi,I want that one now,with some passion thank you

Glad you've enjoyed the redheads,lets hope more to follow,I'm watching two tads up front again,not sure is one is being fed,yet,we'll see


take care buddy

Stu

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Re: Stu & Shaz's Dart Frog Room

Postby Chuck Lawson » Fri Jun 06, 2014 7:02 pm

Never knew you were a bird guy; interesting!

It'll be fascinating to see what you learn; I guess it comes down to "where on the evolutionary ladder did learned parental care set in?" I can think of a lot of examples of fish species that do advanced parental care where artificially raised fry went on to spawn and care for their own broods normally in the next generation, but on the other hand, birds... I've never been a reptile guy, not sure where the difference gets split...

I've been enjoying chatting about this too; very anxious to see where it goes from here...

Have a great weekend!

- Chuck

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Re: Stu & Shaz's Dart Frog Room

Postby joneill809 » Fri Jun 06, 2014 7:07 pm

Stu&Shaz wrote:Hey Jim how are you mate?

What can I say I want more,more space bigger vivs(just a couple more frogs he said in a whisper :lol: ) It's building slow but sure Jim,if one goes too quick the burn out clobbers ya,but slow is cool we adapt without too much pressure learn slow enough to have a real chance of not getting overwhelmed.

Ahh jim I look after a guy with some hard core problems,including a bran injury,had him here today,his fav colour is blue,blue frogs blue tads,he stood mesmerized 8)

Thanks buddy for always dropping by to see what malarky has gone on, it's really appreciated I do notice,even though time is short.
How does one get here Jim it's nuts, I 'll take all wishes on the summersi,I want that one now,with some passion thank you

Glad you've enjoyed the redheads,lets hope more to follow,I'm watching two tads up front again,not sure is one is being fed,yet,we'll see


take care buddy

Stu


There is something about a blue frog isn't there. Caught my azzie girl transporting today while the male was loafing around chasing a random hydei. I enjoy dropping in - fascinating thread, thanks for keeping it going. I'm rooting for the summersi......whisper whisper...you need to pick up 4 Lorenzos from Martin....whisper whisper...from his black ghost pair if you can :)
Jim from Austin please contact me if you are willing to trade offspring from:
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http://www.oneillscrossing.com/dart-frogs/

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Re: Stu & Shaz's Dart Frog Room

Postby Stu&Shaz » Sat Jun 07, 2014 2:24 pm

Game on first little fella nailing mels 8) ,so double whammy of vits too

Chuck,when Shaz got ill we really switched from the birds to frogs,it's equally in volving,but the heavy graft isn't there plus the warmth helps with athritis type problems. I was a game keeper first so pheasants duck partridge,then went into the poultry side,then helped with an amazing wildfowl collection in private hands,which we both worked at together. I think that's the coolest thing about the frogs,there are two sets of eyes on everything,a genuine partnership,my failings she picks up on. it's also a partnership of 33 years in the making,so almost intuitive now.

Jim I hear you it's spectacular blue frogs,who knew :lol:

Space is starting to get tight now Jim,really Id like more large oophaga,it's been such an experience,and possibly a couple more rani,we have our eyes set on(one might actually be in the near future),but really I'm not driven for something new. It's the most difficult thing so many frogs that are so amazingly beautiful,tinc wise the Lorenzo don't grab me like some others,but on saying that I've not see Lorenzo in the flesh,we all know how different a frog is when it's right there in front of one,so I'd never rule anything out,

take care both and massive thanks

Stu

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Re: Stu & Shaz's Dart Frog Room

Postby Stu&Shaz » Sun Jun 15, 2014 4:59 pm

A brief update: the azzies seem to be morphing out good and strong,we are thrilled with them ,for this novice with a few reared tincs now under the belt all looks right.

The 3rd and final red head that was hand reared is ootw,moving freely and explored most of her tub withing hours of morphout,frankly she looks the biggest of the 3,I can't knowingly atribute this to a longer morphout period,or slightly more grub in the last stages of development,both are possible,what's cool so far is there seem to be no implications of sls,whatsoever,which is pretty much all one can ask for I guess.

The two siblings are doing great,and I'm still utterly bewildered by the whole experience

bring it on

Stu

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Re: Stu & Shaz's Dart Frog Room

Postby joneill809 » Sun Jun 15, 2014 6:47 pm

Glad to hear you azureus are producing Stu! It's been interesting to watch your progress with the red heads. Any plans to continue now that you have finished up with these three?
Jim from Austin please contact me if you are willing to trade offspring from:
lorenzo - schwinn line|NAIB true sips|fantastica nominant
http://www.oneillscrossing.com/dart-frogs/

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Re: Stu & Shaz's Dart Frog Room

Postby Stu&Shaz » Mon Jun 16, 2014 7:31 am

joneill809 wrote:Glad to hear you azureus are producing Stu! It's been interesting to watch your progress with the red heads. Any plans to continue now that you have finished up with these three?



That's a good question Jim,not straight away for sure!!I've let her carry what she wants this time around,she's on the back of a nice break anyway,so my initial concerns are much less now. But I might try again: really at some stage I'd like to know if I can actually repeat this. I've obviously done something right,well it appears so at this early stage,so like any method,it needs consolidating...proving out. We have a fair few larger frogs,I only set a couple or three clutches a year,it would be foolhardly to get into a position here of over producing I think,it's a very small hobby.So essentially,when they aren't all dried down I have eggs all ways for a part of the year. I have concerns noted above about parental care,so if I can rear and they breed,I'd like to know if there is any fallout,almost before attempting this again. It's tricky to plan for in a way Jim,lining up a feeder sources plus the redheads,lets face it although one manages a collection,for dry seasons etc,one is very much in the lap of the gods,as to if there are eggs when needed.

This hand rearing of large obligates is something said to be incredibly difficult,to gain success with,it's possibly one of the prime factors so few are in the hobby,plus of course Colombia being shut for so long. So on one hand there is the stockman in me,who will always go there,can I do this,can I do that? For example:can I comunal rear tads, can i feed live grub to tadpoles, can I get tincs to WC size,all these are the same for me as the hand reared histo ,me learning methods first hand with our set up what I can do,where I fail. All facets of being better at caring for the frogs. Jim, even the hand rearing has taught me things that will make me better at looking out for the kids being reared by their own mum such as water quality,which are very difficult to get a handle on in viv,where one most of the time can't even see a tadpole..

But the flip side is complicated,issues about parental care,money would rear it's butt ugly head for some here,should large obligates be more freely available,all manner of things. Even,for example: if this practice was widespread,would it affect organisations like teseros(whom I personally think are awesome). Jim I hate the fact that the relatively high price of these frogs prevent many from keeping,they should not be in the hands of rich folks exclusively,they should be in the hands of froggers that really care about these animals. I don't see them as something to be bragged about,either,I wish knowledge on them was more freely shared,since I've been in the hobby,not long for sure,I'm starting to see more info shared,obviously wikiri Paru being part of that,no questions on legality.

For me a simple guy that looks out for "ickle aminals :lol: " it's all a bit deep,but I think worth pondering.

He he bloody stocked on the azzies Jim, thanks mate,they look very strong. In those last 3 words of that little statement is why the wait was so long to get them,I don't think there are that many lines here,so needed the right frogs to breed from and finally we are there,plus Shaz got the colours she particularly wanted,even if I still haven't a bloody clue what that is,LMAO :roll: :lol: :lol: :lol:

be lucky mate

Stu


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