Diane's frogs and vivs

Your Full Tank Shot (FTS).....or not. Frog Room pics.
DianeCarter
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Re: Diane's frogs and vivs

Postby DianeCarter » Sat Jun 22, 2013 12:35 am

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Hopefully this is a pic of 2 azureus in a cocohut. If so, I will post my question.
Pumilio bastimentos, R. benedictas, P. Terribilis orange, R. Imitator Cainarachi Valley, D. Leucomelas, D. Auratus, D. Azureus, P. vittatus, D. cobalts, D.Oyapok, Bombina Orientalis

DianeCarter
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Re: Diane's frogs and vivs

Postby DianeCarter » Sat Jun 22, 2013 12:46 am

OK, my pic posted.
I have always read that azureus do best as a pair--1 male, 1 female. Unless they are raised together. Well, I bought these 4 a year ago, at 2-3 mos OOW. They have always been together, and I watch them a lot--probably an hour a day. They are my favorites, very bold, always out and about. Never any signs of aggression, until possibly a month ago. This is my question, for those of you with azureus experience!
Occasionally, very rarely, I will see 2 of the frogs face off, and then one of them hop on the other. No wrestling, etc, just hop, hop, and over the other frog and gone. All 4 are bold, all 4 are out and about, all 4 are good eaters.
I have of course always observed them to try to sex them. I have been thinking they are all 4 females, but I have no experience with this--just from what I've read.
Then today, while snapping a few pix, I see 2 of them in the cocohut together. Could this mean they are a pair? Any likelihood they are the same gender, and in a cocohut together?
If any of you with azureus experience have any ideas, I'd love to hear it!
If I need to separate them it's no problem, I do have an extra viv growing in!
Thanks much,
Diane
Pumilio bastimentos, R. benedictas, P. Terribilis orange, R. Imitator Cainarachi Valley, D. Leucomelas, D. Auratus, D. Azureus, P. vittatus, D. cobalts, D.Oyapok, Bombina Orientalis

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joneill809
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Re: Diane's frogs and vivs

Postby joneill809 » Sat Jun 22, 2013 1:33 am

Glenn and I posted some shots of our pairs here:
viewtopic.php?f=55&t=7488

That may help with some of the visual cues we used for our pairs. I can't help much on the aggression front - we started our collection with two blue frogs...that turned out to be a pair.

When mine started breeding they were never more than a few inches apart from each other for days. It was a distinct change in behavior from when they tended to spend time foraging around the viv independently. The female would follow the male around the viv stroking him. After a few days they picked a brom and started depositing - they now prefer the petri dish over the brom. So I'd say the hanging out in the hut is a good sign.

Exciting times! Hopefully someone else with more relevant group aggression advice can chime in! The other change I made that seemed to have a big impact was adding Repashy w/ vit A helped with their yields - not sure if that is in your rotation.
Jim from Austin please contact me if you are willing to trade offspring from:
lorenzo - schwinn line|NAIB true sips|fantastica nominant
http://www.oneillscrossing.com/dart-frogs/

DianeCarter
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Re: Diane's frogs and vivs

Postby DianeCarter » Sat Jun 22, 2013 2:04 am

Jim, Thanks so much! I have enjoyed your postings from day 1, so I'm very glad you posted here!
Yes, I include Repashy Vitamin A twice per month, every 2 weeks. Otherwise, I dust with ultrafine calcium with D3, and Herptivite, the calcium about 5 times per week, and the Herptivite the other 2 days. I always use vitamins less than 6 months old. My vivs are kept between 70-75 degrees during the day, with a max drop at night of 10 degrees, usually less. Humidity is kept at 75-90%, depending on the frogs.
I haven't seen them staying so close to each other, but I must say, the 4 aren't as distinctly different appearing as your Big Spot and Little Spot! I don't have all 4 down pat as to who is who--so there could be 2 who are staying close, and I just haven't realized it. They all 4 have separate roosting spots, which goes along with my original belief that they are all females. I haven't heard any calling from their viv, but I believe azureus have quiet calls, don't they? DO you hear Litttle Spot call?
Thanks so much for your advice and input, I really appreciate it!!
Diane
Pumilio bastimentos, R. benedictas, P. Terribilis orange, R. Imitator Cainarachi Valley, D. Leucomelas, D. Auratus, D. Azureus, P. vittatus, D. cobalts, D.Oyapok, Bombina Orientalis

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joneill809
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Re: Diane's frogs and vivs

Postby joneill809 » Sat Jun 22, 2013 2:46 am

His call is barely audible. I thought I had an exhaust fan that was out of alignment so I was hunting around the hood until I realized it was LittleSpot calling :lol: I would not have known if I had not witnessed his display and I likely would have ripped my hoods apart looking for faulty equipment ;) I can best describe it as a cell phone on vibrate on top of a soft surface, with a burst of a second or two. He was sneaky with his calling - usually he hung out in the shadows calling to her. He does have a favorite monkey pod now where he perches and calls - that's where I snapped the photos.

I'd say the size difference was always there, but she really started packing on the weight in year two. That link was to a recent photo of them, and you can see that at nearly two years old the size difference is pretty significant. That slope in her back is a really good indicator along with how deep her body is compared to his. Do you see one stroking the other? They will sit side by side and the female periodically lifts a front leg up and strokes his side. That was my first indicator that something was up!

Sounds like you are ahead of me on the supplement rotation! My vivs are warmer - during the summer I'm hard pressed to get the house below 76 to 78 when the temps outside hit 100+ - that's why I do active venting of the viv. They are more active breeders when I provide a small water dish for soaking, feed every day, and mist more heavily. I slowed them down over the winter by pulling their petri dish, tipping over their monkey pods, cutting back their feeding and dialing back the mister.

Maybe if you post top and side views of your four we can all take a stab at helping ID them. That may help keep track of them by their dot patterns too. Zooming in, I noticed a few unique patterns:
Screen Shot 2013-06-22 at 1.29.26 AM.png
Screen Shot 2013-06-22 at 1.29.26 AM.png (374.99 KiB) Viewed 2337 times

Screen Shot 2013-06-22 at 1.31.04 AM.png
The throat spots on the top animal looked unique
Screen Shot 2013-06-22 at 1.31.04 AM.png (34.22 KiB) Viewed 2337 times

Screen Shot 2013-06-22 at 1.33.15 AM.png
The top animal has that bigger dot and a splash (?) behind it?
Screen Shot 2013-06-22 at 1.33.15 AM.png (12.61 KiB) Viewed 2337 times

Screen Shot 2013-06-22 at 1.30.50 AM.png
And the two prominent dots on the lower animal?
Screen Shot 2013-06-22 at 1.30.50 AM.png (21.73 KiB) Viewed 2337 times

Great photo by the way! Not trying to hijack your ID's - just intrigued by the variable patterns azureus show. Anyhow take my advice for what it's worth - my experience is based on one pair :oops:
Jim from Austin please contact me if you are willing to trade offspring from:
lorenzo - schwinn line|NAIB true sips|fantastica nominant
http://www.oneillscrossing.com/dart-frogs/

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Re: Diane's frogs and vivs

Postby frogfreak » Sat Jun 22, 2013 9:18 am

DianeCarter wrote:OK, my pic posted.
I have always read that azureus do best as a pair--1 male, 1 female. Unless they are raised together. Well, I bought these 4 a year ago, at 2-3 mos OOW. They have always been together, and I watch them a lot--probably an hour a day. They are my favorites, very bold, always out and about. Never any signs of aggression, until possibly a month ago. This is my question, for those of you with azureus experience!
Occasionally, very rarely, I will see 2 of the frogs face off, and then one of them hop on the other. No wrestling, etc, just hop, hop, and over the other frog and gone.
Thanks much,
Diane


I don't subscribe to "Tincs do best in pairs" Is it easier for someone very new to frogs, yes. Do they do better, I don't think so, myself. IMO pairs are somewhat boring. There's just SO much more action and different behaviours to be seen, when kept in groups.

Facing off and hoping over on the other frog could be very mild aggression of he/she may have just seen a fly. Tincs aren't very "graceful" :lol:

I keep some pairs, 2.1, 3.1 and 1.2 and some hold backs of 0.2 and 2.0. All over the map, eh!

The females absolutely dominate the tank. You may see males hanging back and waiting for females to feed first, before they join in.

I've seen male - male aggression, female - female aggression, female - male aggression, none of which any frog came out harmed in any way shape or form. No broken bones, no drowning (I have water in all my tanks) No one was stressed to death, either. I've never had to pull a frog, ever!

The key, FOOD! If hungry, it will set them off when food is added. I've seen females kick the crap out of males in the winter months, when I'm cycling them down. Breeding, it doesn't take long for the dominant frogs to get together and exclude the others. I have seen males fight it out after a year or so and the sub become the dominant male. Interesting behaviour for sure! Something you don't get to witness, if kept in pairs.

Maybe, one day I'll write down my observations in more detail, but for now, I'll say I'm "pro group" and leave it at that...

It would be nice if you could get some pics up of all your Azureus, so we can have a go at sexing them for you. Two frogs being close together for days is a sign that they may start to breed soon. Good luck with them and the Leucs!
Glenn

DianeCarter
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Re: Diane's frogs and vivs

Postby DianeCarter » Mon Jun 24, 2013 9:33 pm

You guys are the best! I have to apologize for not getting back to you sooner. Friday night/Saturday am after I posted, we had a huge storm, including tornados, thunder, lightening, and inches of rain. Our internet went down. :( Saturday morning Stan called AT&T right away. They did some checking from the office, determined that our modem was working, but we had no connection. :x This took an hour to determine, over the phone. Then they told him THEY DON'T DO SERVICE CALLS ON WEEKENDS!!!! :twisted: OMG! They told him they would be out today (Monday) first thing to come in and check the computer and it's wires.
Well, I'm a weekender in the ER. I work 13 hours every Saturday and Sunday, get off (supposedly) at 3am. Home at 3:30 or 4:00am. To bed by 5 or 6. I HAVE to sleep till noon, otherwise..........I'm too old for this! So he told them not to come to the house til noon.
No internet over the weekend killed us, well, particularly Stan. I get on for an hour or so after work on weekends, but he is on and off constantly.
So this morning they came to the house around 9am, and started working in the outside electric box. I got up at noon. By 1:00 the guy was inside, needing info from us about the time we connected originally (years ago!)By 2:30, he had determined that lightning must've fried our modem, sold us a new one, attached it, but he couldn't finish up the connection. I had an 800 number to call, etc. OMG, what a pain!!!! Anyway, we are finally reconnected!
All weekend I was curious about what advice you guys would give me, so THANK YOU so much!
I watch my 5 month old grandson 2 days a week, so can't do it tomorrow, but this week I will get pix of my 4 azureus on here for your kind assistance in trying to sex these guys. Also an update on my leucs!
Glenn, I appreciate your opinion about "groups are OK"! I was afraid I would get blasted by somebody for keeping them together, but honestly, if it IS aggression, it's not very aggressive--obviously not threatening to life or limb. Brings to mind the game I played as a child--"leap-frog"-- not violent at all. All 4 seem very happy and healthy, eat well, etc.
After watching these guys for almost a year, I am hopeful that I have 1 male. 1 of the frogs seems to have a distinctly different body habitus. He is a bit smaller, and the angle of his back is a bit more rounded. I am hopeful about this! I've never taken anyone out for picture taking, but my azureus are extremely tame on a day to day basis, feeding, misting, etc. They come up to the front of the viv when they know I am feeding everybody, waiting their turn! So hopefully I will be able to take them out fairly easily, and get GOOD pix for all your help!
And Jim, I was amazed by your ability to do close-ups to check the spots on these guys--thank you, that's awesome! That really helps me a lot! Much easier to identify these 4.
Once we get past these leuc and azureus issues, I can't wait to put up pix of my cobalts (had them since January, growing beautifully, no issues!) and my imitators (had them a year, successfully breeding, no issues).

Thanks again,
Diane
Pumilio bastimentos, R. benedictas, P. Terribilis orange, R. Imitator Cainarachi Valley, D. Leucomelas, D. Auratus, D. Azureus, P. vittatus, D. cobalts, D.Oyapok, Bombina Orientalis

DianeCarter
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Re: Diane's frogs and vivs

Postby DianeCarter » Mon Jun 24, 2013 9:40 pm

PS: Can you believe AT&T doesn't fix downed lines on weekends???!!!
Pumilio bastimentos, R. benedictas, P. Terribilis orange, R. Imitator Cainarachi Valley, D. Leucomelas, D. Auratus, D. Azureus, P. vittatus, D. cobalts, D.Oyapok, Bombina Orientalis

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Re: Diane's frogs and vivs

Postby joneill809 » Mon Jun 24, 2013 11:04 pm

Yikes I can't go a few hours without my connection! Good luck with the photo session!
Jim from Austin please contact me if you are willing to trade offspring from:
lorenzo - schwinn line|NAIB true sips|fantastica nominant
http://www.oneillscrossing.com/dart-frogs/

DianeCarter
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Re: Diane's frogs and vivs

Postby DianeCarter » Fri Jun 28, 2013 12:27 am

My photo session today went better than I expected, my azureus are good girls! If anyone could give me opinions about the gender of these frogs, I would greatly appreciate it! I bought these 4 azureus 1 year ago, and they were 2-3 months OOW at that point. They have been raised together in a 33 gallon viv, and I know they are a bit large--they do love to eat! I will start with Azureus A, pictured here, and I can't promise how long it will take me to put up pix of B, C, and D. I have a really hard time posting pictures here on DD for some reason!

Even if I don't get a consensus here, it is still time well spent! I got all these pix today, and spent time going thru the slide shows. I think I can now identify all 4 azureus! That alone is quite worthwhile!

Thanks, everyone!
DIANE
Pumilio bastimentos, R. benedictas, P. Terribilis orange, R. Imitator Cainarachi Valley, D. Leucomelas, D. Auratus, D. Azureus, P. vittatus, D. cobalts, D.Oyapok, Bombina Orientalis

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Re: Diane's frogs and vivs

Postby DianeCarter » Fri Jun 28, 2013 12:32 am

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Pumilio bastimentos, R. benedictas, P. Terribilis orange, R. Imitator Cainarachi Valley, D. Leucomelas, D. Auratus, D. Azureus, P. vittatus, D. cobalts, D.Oyapok, Bombina Orientalis

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Re: Diane's frogs and vivs

Postby joneill809 » Fri Jun 28, 2013 2:18 pm

Hi Diane! I only see one picture. Do you happen to have a side view available for this one?
Jim from Austin please contact me if you are willing to trade offspring from:
lorenzo - schwinn line|NAIB true sips|fantastica nominant
http://www.oneillscrossing.com/dart-frogs/

DianeCarter
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Re: Diane's frogs and vivs

Postby DianeCarter » Fri Jun 28, 2013 10:19 pm

Hi Jim,
I really have a problem putting photos on this site! Sorry. I literally spent hours trying to put my slideshows on, then when I couldn't put slideshows, I tried photos. I finally gave up! I will give it another try soon. Very frustrating!
Yesterday was, however, productive! I made slideshows of all 4 of my azureus, and I am now able to tell them apart--that is very exciting! As you know, when you have pix you can obviously look them over closely, and get to know which frog is which. Very cool!
Anyway, thanks for your willingness to help! This is my weekend off (I work 5, have 1 off), so hopefully I will figure out how to do this!
Diane
Pumilio bastimentos, R. benedictas, P. Terribilis orange, R. Imitator Cainarachi Valley, D. Leucomelas, D. Auratus, D. Azureus, P. vittatus, D. cobalts, D.Oyapok, Bombina Orientalis

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Re: Diane's frogs and vivs

Postby joneill809 » Sat Jun 29, 2013 7:17 am

No worries! Glad to hear you have your frogs identified by pattern...you know what is next...names! ;) my kids are usually more creative than me. I would have never thought to name a frog Hello Kitty.

Phil bumped a thread for you on uploading pics. Let us know if you still have trouble and we will see how we can help!
Jim from Austin please contact me if you are willing to trade offspring from:
lorenzo - schwinn line|NAIB true sips|fantastica nominant
http://www.oneillscrossing.com/dart-frogs/

DianeCarter
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Re: Diane's frogs and vivs

Postby DianeCarter » Sat Jun 29, 2013 9:38 pm

Jim,
OMG, knowing me, I probably will name them, now that I can tell them apart! More likely if I can find out their genders! I finally figured out what I've been doing wrong when trying to send pix to DD, so here are some pix of Azureus A. Any ideas as to gender?
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Pumilio bastimentos, R. benedictas, P. Terribilis orange, R. Imitator Cainarachi Valley, D. Leucomelas, D. Auratus, D. Azureus, P. vittatus, D. cobalts, D.Oyapok, Bombina Orientalis

DianeCarter
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Re: Diane's frogs and vivs

Postby DianeCarter » Sat Jun 29, 2013 9:50 pm

Here is Azureus B.
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Pumilio bastimentos, R. benedictas, P. Terribilis orange, R. Imitator Cainarachi Valley, D. Leucomelas, D. Auratus, D. Azureus, P. vittatus, D. cobalts, D.Oyapok, Bombina Orientalis

DianeCarter
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Re: Diane's frogs and vivs

Postby DianeCarter » Sat Jun 29, 2013 9:55 pm

These 2, A and B, are the 2 that were in the cocohut together. So hopefully, A is female and B is male. A is larger, her back is really arched, and her toe pads aren't very big. B is smaller, less arch to his back, and largish front toepads.
What do you think?
Pumilio bastimentos, R. benedictas, P. Terribilis orange, R. Imitator Cainarachi Valley, D. Leucomelas, D. Auratus, D. Azureus, P. vittatus, D. cobalts, D.Oyapok, Bombina Orientalis

DianeCarter
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Re: Diane's frogs and vivs

Postby DianeCarter » Sat Jun 29, 2013 10:06 pm

Here is Azureus C.

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034.JPG
Pumilio bastimentos, R. benedictas, P. Terribilis orange, R. Imitator Cainarachi Valley, D. Leucomelas, D. Auratus, D. Azureus, P. vittatus, D. cobalts, D.Oyapok, Bombina Orientalis

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Re: Diane's frogs and vivs

Postby DianeCarter » Sat Jun 29, 2013 10:19 pm

And last but not least, Azureus D.

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Pumilio bastimentos, R. benedictas, P. Terribilis orange, R. Imitator Cainarachi Valley, D. Leucomelas, D. Auratus, D. Azureus, P. vittatus, D. cobalts, D.Oyapok, Bombina Orientalis

BcsTx
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Re: Diane's frogs and vivs

Postby BcsTx » Sat Jun 29, 2013 10:21 pm

Hi Diane!
A looks like a female to me and B looks like a male. C is hard to tell by the pics but I would venture a female.
Have you seen any back stroking from A to B?
Nice frogs by the way looks like they are getting fed well. ;-)
-Beth


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