O. Pumilio Ensenada- Pics

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RichFrye
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Re: O. Pumilio Ensenada

Postby RichFrye » Thu Feb 14, 2013 10:30 am

BluePumilio wrote:Personally, health certs are almost pointless with herps unless you are testing for chytrid/Rana/etc. Though, if they are breeding, that generally shows they are healthy.




This is a HUGE misconception. Knowing the state of health of your frogs is something everyone should strive to accomplish.
Darts and many, many animals breed when they are stressed. So;
When a huge low comes through, they breed because they think it's the end of the world, or at least a period of bad weather is coming and they may never get a chance to breed again.
When we stress them by moving them into a new environment, be it new viv or half way around the world.
The key thing people who just want offspring and want them right away need to understand is that a little short term stress will produce breeding activity, short term.
Now short term to someone who plans to turn the frogs over is great (not at all saying Juan is doing this). A little stress, a few pics of eggs , tads and maybe even a few froglets and now we have a pumilio breeder.
What people who have had the same groups of 'successful' frogs year after year understand is that short term breeding is just that. And long term health , healthy life longevity and then production and then actually keeping the froglets alive to adult breeding age should be closer to the goal.

Some people will never be happy with Ray Jr., the way Panama is currently exporting, and the issues constantly and validly raised, all the while simply hoping at some time the bar will be raised as well.
Darts with parasites are analogous to mixed tanks, there are no known benefits to the frogs with either.


If tone is more important to you than content, you are at the wrong place.

My new email address is rich.frye@icloud.com and new phone number is 773 577 3476

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RichFrye
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Re: O. Pumilio Ensenada

Postby RichFrye » Thu Feb 14, 2013 10:44 am

Oh, and concerning the "robalo" that came in somewhat recently.
For what it's worth, we see tons of variation in the Uyama River locales , not so much the Robalo.
But this info is coming from researchers and my own experience with them for a number of years, so take it with a grain of salt.
I'm sure Ray Jr. and The Colombian are giving out nothing but the best info...
Darts with parasites are analogous to mixed tanks, there are no known benefits to the frogs with either.


If tone is more important to you than content, you are at the wrong place.

My new email address is rich.frye@icloud.com and new phone number is 773 577 3476

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Sherman
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Re: O. Pumilio Ensenada

Postby Sherman » Thu Feb 14, 2013 10:48 am

BluePumilio wrote:I have not seen the animals in the wild, I did see EVERY one of the Ryans and Ensenadas that came in and they look different. The information comes from the exporter, I have no reason to doubt it. I can not be exactly sure of the localities without collecting them myself.

Perhaps they were seperated before arriving?
I have seen a shift toward rarer and smaller populations and have heard there is a quite a financial premium on them. So what brings in more cash? One large group of one "locality", or two smaller groups from different "localities".
Any time you introduce $$$, you should bring with it a little boubt.

BluePumilio wrote:I would think that habitat destruction and not collection for the trade is what I would be worried about. Just a personal thought.

I agree that protecting the habitat is important, but uncontolled collection is a potential problem.
Heroin is bad. That doesn't mean that cigarettes are good for you.
There is a need for oversight. Sure if an area is about to be leveled by a bulldozer, by all means take every frog, plant, rock, bug... you can find.
Lets not accidently wipe out a population because we want to be the first kid on the block to have something that looks like a "________" (Insert coolest, new morph).

BluePumilio wrote:Are you saying the frogs in the pics come look like a locality from the Bocas del Toro and not where they are saying it came from?

I am saying that you can not tell visually where a frog comes from. If you do not know where a frog comes from you can not claim the importation has no ill impact on the frogs in the wild.

BluePumilio wrote:How about you just label them all are Valliente Peninsula and pay no attention to Ryan, Ensenada, Melci, etc?

"Ensenada" Strickley January 2013. Retaining all pertinent information will keep things clearer.

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RichFrye
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Re: O. Pumilio Ensenada

Postby RichFrye » Thu Feb 14, 2013 10:55 am

Sherman wrote:
BluePumilio wrote:I have not seen the animals in the wild, I did see EVERY one of the Ryans and Ensenadas that came in and they look different. The information comes from the exporter, I have no reason to doubt it. I can not be exactly sure of the localities without collecting them myself.

Perhaps they were seperated and/or re-named as an 'expensive' locale before arriving?
.


Now this has never happened before for monetary gain. :roll:
Shall I start with Regina and GO and go forward, or start with 'robalo' and go back???
Darts with parasites are analogous to mixed tanks, there are no known benefits to the frogs with either.


If tone is more important to you than content, you are at the wrong place.

My new email address is rich.frye@icloud.com and new phone number is 773 577 3476

BluePumilio
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Re: O. Pumilio Ensenada

Postby BluePumilio » Thu Feb 14, 2013 11:19 am

Rich, if anyone should know, it would be you. Health certificates don't show a darn thing. I get enough of them for animals to know they are practically pointless. They do not show the health of specimens.

As for Ray Jr, I saw the way they are setting these frogs up when they are coming in, he should be applauded for their current setup.

RichFrye wrote:
BluePumilio wrote:Personally, health certs are almost pointless with herps unless you are testing for chytrid/Rana/etc. Though, if they are breeding, that generally shows they are healthy.




This is a HUGE misconception. Knowing the state of health of your frogs is something everyone should strive to accomplish.
Darts and many, many animals breed when they are stressed. So;
When a huge low comes through, they breed because they think it's the end of the world, or at least a period of bad weather is coming and they may never get a chance to breed again.
When we stress them by moving them into a new environment, be it new viv or half way around the world.
The key thing people who just want offspring and want them right away need to understand is that a little short term stress will produce breeding activity, short term.
Now short term to someone who plans to turn the frogs over is great (not at all saying Juan is doing this). A little stress, a few pics of eggs , tads and maybe even a few froglets and now we have a pumilio breeder.
What people who have had the same groups of 'successful' frogs year after year understand is that short term breeding is just that. And long term health , healthy life longevity and then production and then actually keeping the froglets alive to adult breeding age should be closer to the goal.

Some people will never be happy with Ray Jr., the way Panama is currently exporting, and the issues constantly and validly raised, all the while simply hoping at some time the bar will be raised as well.

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Re: O. Pumilio Ensenada

Postby RichFrye » Thu Feb 14, 2013 11:39 am

I suppose "health certificate" varies from state to state and from vet to vet as far as what it needs to entail or voluntarily does entail, and there may even be levels needed or asked for.
Who would be the people mandating health reports which are useless? I'd make that a priority to change in those states.
Bottom line. You need to do testing to see where your frogs' states of health are at.
Using breeding as a yardstick is not a good idea. And it is not accurate.

I've seen a lot of nice "set-ups" and what they were peddling was more the concern, not the set-up...
Oh, and the person selling them matters to me too.


BluePumilio wrote:Rich, if anyone should know, it would be you. Health certificates don't show a darn thing. I get enough of them for animals to know they are practically pointless. They do not show the health of specimens.

As for Ray Jr, I saw the way they are setting these frogs up when they are coming in, he should be applauded for their current setup.

RichFrye wrote:
BluePumilio wrote:Personally, health certs are almost pointless with herps unless you are testing for chytrid/Rana/etc. Though, if they are breeding, that generally shows they are healthy.




This is a HUGE misconception. Knowing the state of health of your frogs is something everyone should strive to accomplish.
Darts and many, many animals breed when they are stressed. So;
When a huge low comes through, they breed because they think it's the end of the world, or at least a period of bad weather is coming and they may never get a chance to breed again.
When we stress them by moving them into a new environment, be it new viv or half way around the world.
The key thing people who just want offspring and want them right away need to understand is that a little short term stress will produce breeding activity, short term.
Now short term to someone who plans to turn the frogs over is great (not at all saying Juan is doing this). A little stress, a few pics of eggs , tads and maybe even a few froglets and now we have a pumilio breeder.
What people who have had the same groups of 'successful' frogs year after year understand is that short term breeding is just that. And long term health , healthy life longevity and then production and then actually keeping the froglets alive to adult breeding age should be closer to the goal.

Some people will never be happy with Ray Jr., the way Panama is currently exporting, and the issues constantly and validly raised, all the while simply hoping at some time the bar will be raised as well.
Darts with parasites are analogous to mixed tanks, there are no known benefits to the frogs with either.


If tone is more important to you than content, you are at the wrong place.

My new email address is rich.frye@icloud.com and new phone number is 773 577 3476

BluePumilio
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Re: O. Pumilio Ensenada

Postby BluePumilio » Thu Feb 14, 2013 11:47 am

Health cert doesn't say a darn thing about testing when it comes to frogs in any state. No one requires chytrid or Rana testing, no fecals/smears. Health verts are practically pointless for frogs, they mean nothing, except the frog visually looks healthy.

What I am saying is that you'd get a better idea of the health of the animal from it reproducing then a health cert, I stand by that.

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Re: O. Pumilio Ensenada

Postby BluePumilio » Thu Feb 14, 2013 11:48 am

The frogs from the last shipment came in good, that'd be a concern, too. If future shipments come in as good, I think the hobby has a lot to be thankful for.

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Re: O. Pumilio Ensenada

Postby RichFrye » Thu Feb 14, 2013 12:07 pm

I stick with long term health as my "good" bar. We won't find out if anything is "good" for awhile.
I agree that there is even more testing needed above and beyond a health cert.
Darts with parasites are analogous to mixed tanks, there are no known benefits to the frogs with either.


If tone is more important to you than content, you are at the wrong place.

My new email address is rich.frye@icloud.com and new phone number is 773 577 3476

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Sherman
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Re: O. Pumilio Ensenada

Postby Sherman » Thu Feb 14, 2013 12:17 pm

BluePumilio wrote:The frogs from the last shipment came in good, that'd be a concern, too. If future shipments come in as good, I think the hobby has a lot to be thankful for.


I am confused by the first sentence.
I am not objecting to the conditions the frogs face as they are transported. I stand up and applaud them based on your first hand experience with EVERY one that came in.
My concern (that you seem to avoid and/or ignore) is the collection method, and its effect on wild populations.

Do you really think that unrestricted phenotype bounty-hunting is without risk?

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MichiganExotics
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Re: O. Pumilio Ensenada

Postby MichiganExotics » Thu Feb 14, 2013 12:20 pm

look guys i post this pics because some people ask me and for records not to start a drama in every post just enjoy the pics and if you don't like how imports and exports are handle go buy land in center American build a special breeding program to help the wild population and change the way imports are done. don't blame no one. and if you don't like it well don't buy it. you guys should be grate full that we all breeding this imports and lower the cost on dart frogs so that way in the future will compete whit the exporters prices. and about the health on the frogs we are aware of it and we work on it.

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Re: O. Pumilio Ensenada

Postby Philsuma » Thu Feb 14, 2013 12:31 pm

^^ Agree. Sherman et al - questions on WC pumilo collection. We can start another thread discussing same. I absolutely love the colouration of this peninsula locale.

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Sherman
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Re: O. Pumilio Ensenada- Pics

Postby Sherman » Thu Feb 14, 2013 12:37 pm

Agreed.
My appologies to the OP.

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Re: O. Pumilio Ensenada- Pics

Postby Philsuma » Sat Oct 18, 2014 6:33 pm

like the color and pattern on these !


Last bumped by Philsuma on Sat Oct 18, 2014 6:33 pm.


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