UVB Light - its pros/ cons

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Re: UVB and its pros/ cons

Postby Venutus1 » Mon Jun 06, 2011 10:37 am

Philsuma wrote:Nice work on PPG ! I'm glad I made this thread a sticky.

Side by side testing and metering of glasses should be our next project.....


Yes, I will participate, I have the meters.

I will need to source some starphire glass in Maine.

Does anyone have any scraps just lying around?

And as far as the loss of UV goes, thats no problemo...
If it turns out to warrent it, you can just use a Repti Sun 10.0 to compensate for the loss.
And or adjust the distance of the bulb/fixture if practical.
Will call the glass company.....
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Re: UVB and its pros/ cons

Postby testudolinks » Mon Jun 06, 2011 11:05 am

Azurel wrote:I got an e-mail back from PPG.....I was sent a PDF that has all PPG glass specifications.
Here is the specs for Starphire
thickness UV%(pass through) visable %
1/8 89 91

If you want "vitamin d transparent" glass, 80% UV does not help. It needs to be at least 60-70% below 310nm for vitamin D. In the US, UVB starts at 320nm, but the range 310-320nm is useless for vitamin d. You need to get a transmission curve, like this one for soda-lime-glass (standard window and terrarium glass http://www.sinclairmfg.com/datasheets/sodalimecurve.htm ), which is transparent to UV, but not below ~330nm.

Boro-silicate glass is transparent down to ~300nm, Datasheet for Schott BK7 glass
Pure Fused Silica is very transparent.

Some PPMA (Acrylic glass) that does not contain "uv protection" can be transparent to 60% at 300nm ("Alltop", popular in Germany for greenhouses) and there is also some very uv transparent "uvb window" foil for greenhouses http://www.folitec.de/folitec/produkte/ ... index.html - German again.

When you use a broadbandmeter to test "vitamin d transmission", please use a meter that does not respond to radiation above 310nm. (solarmeter 6.5 instead of 6.2)

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Re: UVB and its pros/ cons

Postby Venutus1 » Mon Jun 06, 2011 12:08 pm

testudolinks wrote:....When you use a broadbandmeter to test "vitamin d transmission", please use a meter that does not respond to radiation above 310nm. (solarmeter 6.5 instead of 6.2)


Thank you Sarina, your expertise is much appreciated!
Todd
(aka. actiondisplay in UV meter group :) )
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Re: UVB and its pros/ cons

Postby Philsuma » Mon Jun 06, 2011 12:39 pm

testudolinks wrote:
Azurel wrote:I got an e-mail back from PPG.....I was sent a PDF that has all PPG glass specifications.
Here is the specs for Starphire
thickness UV%(pass through) visable %
1/8 89 91

If you want "vitamin d transparent" glass, 80% UV does not help. It needs to be at least 60-70% below 310nm for vitamin D. In the US, UVB starts at 320nm, but the range 310-320nm is useless for vitamin d.


I am having trouble understanding this...so 80% is not acceptable at all ? Can you clarify what thresholds were are trying for in UVB ?

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Re: UVB and its pros/ cons

Postby Tony » Mon Jun 06, 2011 1:21 pm

Azurel wrote:I know there are some acrylics that allow it through for uses in tanning beds. But do not know the type of it.


Solacryl is the most popular brand, but it seems to be difficult to find. I know Brent Brock uses it on his blue jeans viv.

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Re: UVB and its pros/ cons

Postby testudolinks » Mon Jun 06, 2011 2:18 pm

Philsuma wrote:I am having trouble understanding this...so 80% is not acceptable at all ? Can you clarify what thresholds were are trying for in UVB ?

80% is fine :-) It just that "UV" is not specific enough. The material needs to be transparent below 310nm, because only this part of the UVB will work for Vitamin D. If the manufacturer tells you, that the glass is "80% UV transparent", it might be that it is 80% transparent between 330 and 400, and not transparent below 310. And even if the manufacturer tells you, that it is 70% UVB-transparent, it might still be, that it is 100% transparent in the range 310-320 but only 40% transparent between 300 and 310nm (the vitamin d active range).

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Re: UVB and its pros/ cons

Postby RichFrye » Tue Jun 07, 2011 6:33 pm

Just to keep things in perspective;

Image


A friend of mine , Fernando, on the Panama border with his daughter in the middle of the day, not raining. Looking for spiders , dart frogs , and a jaguar near his house, with a flashlight. I love his daughter's climbing shoes.
I wonder what color the flash is , because there ain't no light making it down there. Anybody's viv look like that?
Darts with parasites are analogous to mixed tanks, there are no known benefits to the frogs with either.


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Re: UVB and its pros/ cons

Postby DKOOISTRA » Thu Jun 16, 2011 12:00 am

I don't want to be a downer, just asking a question. regarding frogs "basking" or being "drawn" to the light. They are cold blooded. Could it be that they are just going to the warmest spot to get a little boost? I can't discount, or have any argument regarding tads morphing with brighter colors, but it seems the most logical to me that frogs in the viv are just instinctively going to a warmer spot for a warm up? Have you seen a color change in adult frogs never exposed to the UV light before once you expose them? I've been a little busy lately, the first day this thread popped up that was the thought that went through my head, and I skimmed through it now, so if its been answered already, sorry.
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UVB and its pros/ cons

Postby rcteem » Thu Jun 16, 2011 12:42 am

The color does get a little brighter in adults


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Re: UVB and its pros/ cons

Postby rcteem » Wed Jun 29, 2011 11:47 pm

Anyone care to post some pictures of how they are doing their UVB experiment?

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Re: pics of my redone grow outtank....

Postby Venutus1 » Thu Jun 30, 2011 11:35 am

This is a pick of my newly redone grow out tank with modest UV.
Glass w/ screened holes works well, btw.
Also, I sell Solarmeter 6.2s, at a great price, when everyone is ready for one.. :)
(But my friends at Chameleon Forums totally cleaned me out this week. More in next week... e/m me.)

It was a 10 gal. originaly ... but I upsized to a 16H. Put up pics of orig. 10 gal. so you could see how the cubes on the bottom work.
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Re: have to do it in sections...

Postby Venutus1 » Thu Jun 30, 2011 11:38 am

Drilling top to alow UV to pass......
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Re: UVB and its pros/ cons- UV readings in grow out tank

Postby Venutus1 » Thu Jun 30, 2011 11:43 am

they are fairly low readings, I tested and could traded out the 15w repti-sun 5.0 with a 10.0 and got approx. double reading numbers.
Pesonally, I would use a 10.0 Repti Sun on a similar set up for adult variabilis.. but for tads and just morphed juvies, I went with very modest levels to be safe.
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Re: My Boyz hangin' out

Postby Venutus1 » Thu Jun 30, 2011 12:05 pm

2 of the Boyz hangin' in the light. :shock: ....
All three were there for a while, but Big Boy jumped off while I was getting the camera.
(sorry for the fuzzy pics, glass dirty... damn calcium bentonite footprints all over it. :oops: )

Full lighting is ON.
And they are out and calling full force.
Full light is on 5 Hours a day, outside of that, the set ups only get 1/2 as much light and UV levels.
Actually, it is kinda dim by my standards when only half the lights are on.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
For frame of reference, Solarmeter 6.2 reading in full sun outside is like 200+. Probally would go as high as 260 + in the tropics.
Early morning sun is around 45-60... give or take.
Shade is 0 to 20-ish.
Partial shade mid day = 30-60-ish.
Always UV safely.
Cheers,
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Re: UVB and its pros/ cons

Postby Venutus1 » Thu Jun 30, 2011 12:12 pm

rcteem wrote:Anyone care to post some pictures of how they are doing their UVB experiment?


Sorry...I know, the above does not constitute an experiment, since I have no control group(s).
I have no need to experiment for myself anyway...at least as far as variabilis are concerned. :wink:

Later.
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Re: UVB and its pros/ cons

Postby D3monic » Thu Jun 30, 2011 5:42 pm

Next time one of you guys take a trip down to the jungle you should take a par meter with you and take measurments in different locations where groups of frogs are found and see what actually does penetrate the canopy.
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Re: UVB Light - its pros/ cons

Postby Stu&Shaz » Thu Aug 04, 2011 3:07 pm

we utilise UVB. As novices, we try and ask questons as much as possible to try and make an informed decision as to how to go about something. Very early on in our research we came across reports of guys struggling to morph certain tadpoles, and rectifying the problem with the use of UVB. Also on our first amphibian forum there was a write-up all about uvb. The real clincher was Marcus and Grahams (Mworks) observations, and the revelation of optiwhite letting uvb through the glass. We already have uvb bulbs over each viv that has frogs, we don't actually use these bulbs until darts inhabit the viv,as they are said to have a useful life of a year. We use Bio-vitals made by narva -a German company they are a T5. Whilst talking to a scientist whom also keep darts here (he's done a lot of work with toxicology and dart toxins i believe), we got into a conversation about one of his theories that the angle of the sun, might have an effect on dart breeding cycles. From that he mentioned that he doesn't ever shut the blinds on his frog room. (I know I'm getting there..LMAO), I showed concern about the very early morning sun catching our vivs, he told me not to worry(sun only catches our vivs very early morning on one side of a north facing room) so we did some experiments he seems to be right the temperature explosion i expected in the vivs never happened, but every morning of full sun, as the narrow shaft of sunlight tracked across our vivs our auratus could be seen basking in it standing high legged, I thought that this might be of interest.

With regard to the UVB lights and the use of optiwhite...our take has been to make one of the top sections of our vivs(i think you call 'em euro vivs) in optiwhite, so there is a variety of light spectrum available to the frogs and they can choose what they want, i.e the bit to the right ect.

Image

That way, if there is too much for them they can get out of it. I am a novice i don't have any proof about the benefits to our frogs, but it seems really worth trying to take advantage of these lights. So often i read about the importance of Calcium and vitamin D3 and UVB is tied up with this i think ,I'd rather try to cover all these bases now and hopefully never see things like sls, or try to work out how to solve it. Oh just as a side note for other guys over here, UK, optiwhite is only hugely expensive at SOME glass merchants, at others it is the same price as normal glass.

Regards,
Stu

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Re: UVB Light - its pros/ cons

Postby Venutus1 » Thu Aug 04, 2011 5:27 pm

Stu&Shaz wrote:we utilise UVB. As novices, we try and ask questons as much as possible to try and make an informed decision as to how to go about something. Very early on in our research we came across reports of guys struggling to morph certain tadpoles, and rectifying the problem with the use of UVB. Also on our first amphibian forum there was a write-up all about uvb. The real clincher was Marcus and Grahams (Mworks) observations, and the revelation of optiwhite letting uvb through the glass. We already have uvb bulbs over each viv that has frogs, we don't actually use these bulbs until darts inhabit the viv,as they are said to have a useful life of a year. We use Bio-vitals made by narva -a German company they are a T5. Whilst talking to a scientist whom also keep darts here (he's done a lot of work with toxicology and dart toxins i believe), we got into a conversation about one of his theories that the angle of the sun, might have an effect on dart breeding cycles. From that he mentioned that he doesn't ever shut the blinds on his frog room. (I know I'm getting there..LMAO), I showed concern about the very early morning sun catching our vivs, he told me not to worry(sun only catches our vivs very early morning on one side of a north facing room) so we did some experiments he seems to be right the temperature explosion i expected in the vivs never happened, but every morning of full sun, as the narrow shaft of sunlight tracked across our vivs our auratus could be seen basking in it standing high legged, I thought that this might be of interest.

With regard to the UVB lights and the use of optiwhite...our take has been to make one of the top sections of our vivs(i think you call 'em euro vivs) in optiwhite, so there is a variety of light spectrum available to the frogs and they can choose what they want, i.e the bit to the right ect.

Image

That way, if there is too much for them they can get out of it. I am a novice i don't have any proof about the benefits to our frogs, but it seems really worth trying to take advantage of these lights. So often i read about the importance of Calcium and vitamin D3 and UVB is tied up with this i think ,I'd rather try to cover all these bases now and hopefully never see things like sls, or try to work out how to solve it. Oh just as a side note for other guys over here, UK, optiwhite is only hugely expensive at SOME glass merchants, at others it is the same price as normal glass.

Regards,
Stu


Looks great. You haven't taken any UV readings with a uv meter have you?
I was just curious as to how much was getting in there. :D

Thanks!
Todd
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Re: UVB Light - its pros/ cons

Postby Stu&Shaz » Thu Aug 04, 2011 5:41 pm

unfortunately not Tod,i really don't use a lot of metering,i try to work our the basics and understand those concepts and then apply them principally using my gut/instinct,and a fair smattering of unfounded logic :lol: sounds silly but think like the animal...what it needs,anyway am digging my self another hole,i'll stop
Seriously though Todd was it you whom wanted to contact someone at arcadia? in the uk?
regards
Stu

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Re: UVB Light - its pros/ cons

Postby Arcadiajohn » Wed Dec 21, 2011 10:33 am

Answering the questions about light and the canopy, good timing really I have a book coming out entitled lighting for understory species. There is a whole section on dendros in the book. I will quickly explain my findings from the research papers available.if we take all light as 100%, after all absorption from atmosphere and clouds and canopy, the average % of total light making it's way down through emergent, into the canopy and then into the understory via leaf scatter would be about 4-6%. Any shiney or wet surfaces would reflect light and Uv back up into the ecosystem, this could mean that this energy is reusable to animals with adapted skin for absorbing low levels. This is a surprising amount, now we all know that different frogs come from different elevations, the trick is to match your captive environment to the wild. So a species from a higher altitude is provided with more mws2. Dendros are as we all know able to see UV. This is a godsend for them and us! It simply means that we can use higher powered T5 lamps over a small area in the enclosure, decorate the enclosure accordingly so that the frogs can photoregualte from say 40-50cms at the furthest point to 15-20cms at a basking platform, the frogs are the experts!!! They are able to photoregualte very well, they will move in the enclosure to get what they need, when they need it. I would be far happier providing high levels of UV over two thirds of the enclosure even for 6 hours a day and letting the frogs regulate themselves than using a low powered lamp over a wider area for longer! Cool and shade is just as important to the chemical changes in the body as heat, light and UV. Ideally we should all be providing light and shade. We keep bumblebee toads in the office here, they come from a high altitude and are very diurnal, so no supprise that they sit 10cms under a very powerful lamp for sessions of about 10 mins at a time at least 3 or 4 times a day! This is providing around 40-60mws2 with that lamp at that distance. I hope this is helpful!, John.
John courteney-smith
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