2ndAnnual Reptile and Amphibian Law Symposium & Workshop

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ecichlid
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Re: "Hybridizing”,Cross-breeding and Mixing Dart Frogs

Postby ecichlid » Tue Mar 11, 2014 4:04 pm

RichFrye wrote:Also, to come back to the 'social club' aspect of a group.
If anyone thinks that everyone in our hobby belongs in an association formed to promote ethics, lineage tracking, proper husbandry ect., etc., they need to rethink what happens once you let the lions (dirtbags) in...and this hobby (mainly the business end, but more than enough hobby examples also ) has a crap-ton of lions.
If a get together where you drink a few beers and chat about things is what ya want, simple.
If a working union of like minded responsible breeders who have proven themselves on the levels and concerns expressed is what you are looking for, good luck. TWI and all it's 'heavy hitters' tried for years to get it going , somewhat. But in the end they never were even capable of tracking given lineage...with TONS of offered volunteer help, mine included.
Why is it like herding cats to get an association started ? One reason is this hobby happens to attract some of the most bat-shit crazy hobbyists you can imagine, my self included. But also because of the HUGE divergence of wishes, understanding, profit scales, experience, greed, lack of greed, ethics, lack of ethics...in other words, we have a bunch of crazies with totally different wants and needs from the hobby. And, there are plenty of froggers praying there is never any mandated or heavily suggested practices heading their froggin way, at all.


Rich, you have lots of ideas in here, some appears to be based on your experience, which is good. I like when people speak from experience. I do think you are being overly skeptical in your post. The frog hobby has some unique challenges, but by no means is unique. Much of what you describe can be said of most associations for most hobbies.

If I helped found a national organization, which I might if Chicago has any traction, then I might write something like this, which is mostly borrowed:

The American Frog Association is a not-for-profit organization that gathers and disseminates knowledge of frogs. We promote fellowship amongst the membership and further the conservation of frogs and their natural habitats.

I would not want to be part of any lineage tracking or mandated practices.
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RichFrye
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Re: "Hybridizing”,Cross-breeding and Mixing Dart Frogs

Postby RichFrye » Tue Mar 11, 2014 4:27 pm

ecichlid wrote:
RichFrye wrote:Also, to come back to the 'social club' aspect of a group.
If anyone thinks that everyone in our hobby belongs in an association formed to promote ethics, lineage tracking, proper husbandry ect., etc., they need to rethink what happens once you let the lions (dirtbags) in...and this hobby (mainly the business end, but more than enough hobby examples also ) has a crap-ton of lions.
If a get together where you drink a few beers and chat about things is what ya want, simple.
If a working union of like minded responsible breeders who have proven themselves on the levels and concerns expressed is what you are looking for, good luck. TWI and all it's 'heavy hitters' tried for years to get it going , somewhat. But in the end they never were even capable of tracking given lineage...with TONS of offered volunteer help, mine included.
Why is it like herding cats to get an association started ? One reason is this hobby happens to attract some of the most bat-shit crazy hobbyists you can imagine, my self included. But also because of the HUGE divergence of wishes, understanding, profit scales, experience, greed, lack of greed, ethics, lack of ethics...in other words, we have a bunch of crazies with totally different wants and needs from the hobby. And, there are plenty of froggers praying there is never any mandated or heavily suggested practices heading their froggin way, at all.


Rich, you have lots of ideas in here, some appears to be based on your experience, which is good. I like when people speak from experience. I do think you are being overly skeptical in your post. The frog hobby has some unique challenges, but by no means is unique. Much of what you describe can be said of most associations for most hobbies.

If I helped found a national organization, which I might if Chicago has any traction, then I might write something like this, which is mostly borrowed:

The American Frog Association is a not-for-profit organization that gathers and disseminates knowledge of frogs. We promote fellowship amongst the membership and further the conservation of frogs and their natural habitats.

I would not want to be part of any lineage tracking or mandated practices.


You then would concentrate more on things that TWI did, conservation. And I want hobby standards and forward movement, not a social movement. Lineage is paramount in our hobby and those who do not want to be part of that scare me quite a bit ...
Instead of an organized association (or party platform) I now choose rather to communicate with like minded hobbyists when needs arise and have a much less formal need for organized gatherings and dues.
Darts with parasites are analogous to mixed tanks, there are no known benefits to the frogs with either.


If tone is more important to you than content, you are at the wrong place.

My new email address is rich.frye@icloud.com and new phone number is 773 577 3476

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RichFrye
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Re:

Postby RichFrye » Tue Mar 11, 2014 4:36 pm

ecichlid wrote:
... some of the most prominent people in the hobby...

I am curious who attended NARBC and was some of the most prominent people in the hobby. Since you use it as a selling point.
Living here much of my adult life and having a few really, really good old timer frogger buddies here and I had not heard peep one about the last gathering. Most of the 'old timers' steer pretty clear of that ( NARBC) snake-fest.
May I ask exactly what the goal of these meets are?
Darts with parasites are analogous to mixed tanks, there are no known benefits to the frogs with either.


If tone is more important to you than content, you are at the wrong place.

My new email address is rich.frye@icloud.com and new phone number is 773 577 3476

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Re: 2ndAnnual Reptile and Amphibian Law Symposium & Workshop

Postby joneill809 » Tue Mar 11, 2014 5:03 pm

I've moved several posts from the hybridization thread to this thread where the discussion on a national group has started. Please note the change. Thanks.
Jim from Austin please contact me if you are willing to trade offspring from:
lorenzo - schwinn line|NAIB true sips|fantastica nominant
http://www.oneillscrossing.com/dart-frogs/

ecichlid
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Re: 2ndAnnual Reptile and Amphibian Law Symposium & Workshop

Postby ecichlid » Tue Mar 11, 2014 5:16 pm

Rich, I will send you my phone number, I think this would be better and quicker as a call.
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Re: 2ndAnnual Reptile and Amphibian Law Symposium & Workshop

Postby Dendro_Dave » Thu Mar 13, 2014 2:41 pm

I would suggest not combining a conservation effort with a hobby club type effort. I think if we have a plan to save habitat, save frogs, and help the locals protect and profit off that stuff or something a long those lines basically everyone could get behind that. But I think if you try to combine something like that with anything that is setting standard operating procedures or husbandry/linage tracking guidelines and basically starts getting into hobby politics it is gonna shoot itself in the foot before it gets off the ground. Now you could include efforts fight laws that would affect our hobby in with the conservation club, and the other more hobby related club but I think the frogs would be best served by a conservation organization that let most anyone willing to donate time, effort, money, land, skills etc...etc.. participate.

Anyways I'm not against a hobby club, or even a breeders union in theory, I just think it isn't the ideal entity to efficiently tackle frog conservation.
Everything I've ever wrote is/was just my opinion :P

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Re: 2ndAnnual Reptile and Amphibian Law Symposium & Workshop

Postby Philsuma » Thu Mar 13, 2014 3:09 pm

Quite right Dave,

Here's my quick bullet point breakdown:

1. Conservation Organizations stay exactly how they are - AARK, TWI ect. 100% conservation

2. Hobby Forums and Clubs -regional groups, gatherings and possibly the Breeders Union - can put effort, energy and money into #1 and #3. They are the middle ground and can exist in both other categories or possibly, none.

3. Political / Historic Organization - This is the NEW thing...what we will desperately need to form when the day comes, or better yet BEFORE the day comes when we need help defending our hobby from State or Federal laws and efforts to regulate or curtail us. When PETA or the Humane Society attacks. This is composed of people that are assertive and willing to roll up their sleeves and work to defend the hobby- truly the 05% of the people, it seems.

In ALL THREE cases with the possible exception of a Breeder's Union, and I say possible....no lineage, tracking or other census or listing of hobby animals will EVER take place IMO. THAT horse has completely left the barn, ran down the road and got hit by a car.

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Re: 2ndAnnual Reptile and Amphibian Law Symposium & Workshop

Postby ecichlid » Sat Mar 15, 2014 1:34 am

What's a breeders union? Is it only an idea or does one exist and I just have never heard of it?
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Re: 2ndAnnual Reptile and Amphibian Law Symposium & Workshop

Postby Philsuma » Sat Mar 15, 2014 10:37 am

ecichlid wrote:What's a breeders union? Is it only an idea or does one exist and I just have never heard of it?


That's Rich's baby. I think it's a great idea too.

viewtopic.php?f=41&t=5373

ecichlid
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Re: 2ndAnnual Reptile and Amphibian Law Symposium & Workshop

Postby ecichlid » Sun Mar 16, 2014 4:45 am

Why did the idea not materialize?
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Philsuma
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Re: 2ndAnnual Reptile and Amphibian Law Symposium & Workshop

Postby Philsuma » Sun Mar 16, 2014 8:35 am

post that question to Rich on that thread and ask him. I really don't know.

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Re: 2ndAnnual Reptile and Amphibian Law Symposium & Workshop

Postby Philsuma » Mon Dec 29, 2014 12:24 am

Dart Frog breeders union?

ecichlid
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Re: 2ndAnnual Reptile and Amphibian Law Symposium & Workshop

Postby ecichlid » Mon Dec 29, 2014 11:27 am

Philsuma wrote:Dart Frog breeders union?
A delusional fantasy?
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Re: 2ndAnnual Reptile and Amphibian Law Symposium & Workshop

Postby Philsuma » Mon Dec 29, 2014 12:15 pm

Not near as delusional as Frog Tracks or any lineage or record keeping programe.

I'm not advocating for a 'Union' completely as per Rich's idea, but if you read all my posts in this thread, there are some pretty good reasons why we need much more cohesion sooner than later.

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Re: 2ndAnnual Reptile and Amphibian Law Symposium & Workshop

Postby ecichlid » Mon Dec 29, 2014 1:59 pm

I'm sure I would agree with many "why" reasons. The challenge is the how. What many of us wold like to see is just pie in the sky. Not feasible.
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Re: 2ndAnnual Reptile and Amphibian Law Symposium & Workshop

Postby Philsuma » Sat Jan 23, 2016 9:13 pm

Guess what folks? This conference was SOOOOO under attended. There should have been hundreds of people there and I'm warrant that there were UNDER 100 people. Terrible.

First they came for the Salamanders. Then they came for the Frogs...


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