Breeding for specific traits - Thoughts ?

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guppygal
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Breeding for specific traits - Thoughts ?

Postby guppygal » Sat Sep 17, 2011 2:26 pm

I see a lot of people breeding specific species like thumbs and obligates. Has anyone considered breeding tincs for size? I would imagine that a smaller tinc more suitable for smaller tanks (10g) could add another dimension, so to speak, to the hobby. I'm not talking about the 'H' word. For example, instead of catching/selling w/c dwarf cobalts, is it possible to take the smallest male and female from different lines and breed down for size? Mini cobalts?

Or is this considered another no-no?

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Re: thoughts about breeding for specific traits

Postby Philsuma » Sat Sep 17, 2011 2:35 pm

Short answer - it's bad for the hobby. The hobby term is "line breeding" and while, as you say, it's different from Crossing....it's not much better for the hobby.

I personally, want to keep the human manipulation as low as possible and that seems to be the majority consensus - which is why I like the Dart Frog hobby so much as well.

I can't quite remember my conversation with Sean S. about his "sky blue" azureus.....I'm thinking its a natural trait that he keeps going, but I am not sure if he is actively selecting progeny to manipulate that line.

Good thread topic.


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Re: Breeding for specific traits - Thoughts ?

Postby guppygal » Sat Sep 17, 2011 2:52 pm

I guess it would have to be a collaborative effort on the part of the major breeders in order to avoid line breeding. We've already taken the frogs out of their natural habitat and put them in a small glass enclosure (where did I read that?). We've also altered their diet drastically; otherwise, we wouldn't be able to have a pdf hobby. I'm sure that someone can tell me why tincs need to be the size they are in their natural habitat. Now that we have them in an artificial habitat, is this the best we can do for them?

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Re: Breeding for specific traits - Thoughts ?

Postby Philsuma » Sat Sep 17, 2011 3:28 pm

you're kinda drifting a little with your response post and it seems you may seem to be trying to employ one of the old "mixer" arguments:

"Hey....everything about these frogs is unnatural, so why not do whatever we want with them"

A horrible excuse...a lazy excuse....an ignorant excuse. Not saying you are PERSONALLY embracing this.....I'm just furthering this convo.

general-questions-and-comments-f12/hybridizing-cross-breeding-and-mixing-dart-frogs-t4470.html



“Hybridizing”,Cross-breeding and Mixing Dart Frogs for personal pleasure or participation in the Dart Frog Hobby Community.

We need to start this discussion by realizing that it is not solely a matter of educating new hobbyists, when it comes to this issue. “Educating” implies that hobbyists are doing something wrong and need to be corrected, when in reality, they are just doing something that goes against someone else’s beliefs. This is large hobby and there is enough passion, interest and energy for all, provided we do not adversely affect things for future hobbyists down the road.

We all need to provide good, truthful reasons for why we personally choose not to mix or breed different species or morphs. We must be civil in our attempts to persuade others with opposing viewpoints and realize that not everyone is going to agree and/or change their mind right away or possibly ever.

The majority of the Dart Frog Hobby Community believes that mixing is bad for the hobby because it can lead to hybrid or cross morph frogs being produced and transferred to many other people and places. The reason we feel this is bad is because most Dart Frogs have a long life span and could enter and stay in the hobby - not labeled properly, for a long time. If mislabeled and questionable Dart Frogs circulate in the hobby, they can destroy attempts at trying to manage pure blood lines. The Hobby community realizes that its breeding efforts are unlikely be able to be used for species re-population in the event of extinction, but there are still valid reasons why we want to be able to maintain an accurate representation of what a certain species of dart frog looks and acts like, in nature. The more mixing, hybridization or even the threat or mention of it occurs, the more it will drive many hobbyists to seek to acquire wild caught stock. This definitely hurts conservation efforts. Many older and experienced hobbyists may even “shut their doors” and refuse to help or provide frogs to those seeking to create hybrids or mixed enclosures.

Even though it has been shown that success with mixed species enclosures is achievable, newcomers to the hobby should still start out with a single species, in order to gain the experience that is essential to basic Dart Frog care before trying to attempt a mixed species enclosure. Simply put, when a second or third separate species is added to an enclosure, the chance of something going wrong is accelerated 2 fold. That is the main reason that we direct all new hobbyists to a single species enclosure and not a mixed one.

If, however, you do decide to mix species or morphs, please take into consideration not creating hybrids and to use frogs that cannot breed with one another, like all males. Be prepared to cull any eggs that are produced. Research all the necessary information regarding mixed species enclosures well before attempting same (most information is found online in Forums) in order to make sure you have the best possible setup to be successful, and for the health of your frogs.

Here are some answers to a few questions that inevitably get brought up anytime there is a "mixing" or "Hybrid" discussion:

"I will cull every egg"....You won't find every egg and even froglets I never knew I had, pop up all the time in my vivs.

"Then I will cull those froglets or keep them, but I won't breed them"....In time, you will be overrun with froglets and won't be able to keep every one. Killing small froglets is not an easy thing to do for most people, as well.

"I will only transfer hybrid or crossed offspring to those hobbyists who specifically want then and they all will be informed as to what they are"....It is inevitable once someone gets bored/goes university/has children/moves house/passes away/needs money,then these frogs will have to go somewhere else. The easiest way to do this is to fail to disclose or even lie about what your frogs are (if hybrid). This is the core of the issue - the recirculation of unknown lineage animals at best, or at worst - the direct falsification or missrepresentation of certain dart frogs.

And finally,as Corny and trite as this may sound : The Frogs can’t speak to us. They are truly at our mercy when it comes to housing and caring for them. We all need to consider what is best for them, and not just what we selfishly want and desire.

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Re: Breeding for specific traits - Thoughts ?

Postby guppygal » Sat Sep 17, 2011 6:35 pm

Way off base, kind sir. All I was trying to do is compare w/c vs captive bred and what type of environment each type of frog lives in. In no way, shape, or form did I imply the 'm' word or the 'h' word. My question is specific to tincs, although I also have pumilio and imitators. Do the breeders breed for the biggest frog or simply for frogs to sell? I'm using tincs as an example since they are more readily available to the beginner hobbyist. I apologize if I did not phrase my question quite right. I'm simply curious if anybody has thought about breeding a smaller healthy tinc line of their choice. You can substitute dogs or cats or horses for tincs. Reputable breeders are always looking to breed the tiniest Yorkie, or the largest Great Dane.

Now, I do realize we're talking about wild animals vs domesticated. It appears that selective breeding within a tinc morph, at least in your case, is totally out of the question.

I learn something new everyday.

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Re: Breeding for specific traits - Thoughts ?

Postby Philsuma » Sat Sep 17, 2011 6:46 pm

I just copied and pasted that standard stickied answer that applies more to mixing but it does touch on the reasons why we want out frogs to be able to maintain an accurate representation of what a certain species of dart frog looks and acts like, in nature - how we recieved it as an imported animal.

Line breeding and selective breeding does happen but more hobbyists than not, avoid those breeders and their frogs.

The Dart Frog hobby is fairly unique in that there is no AKC but we also eschew selective human manipulation of lines or species.

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Re: Breeding for specific traits - Thoughts ?

Postby guppygal » Sat Sep 17, 2011 7:30 pm

So, the short answer is that selective breeding is considered a no-no.

'nuf sed -

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Re: Breeding for specific traits - Thoughts ?

Postby guppygal » Sun Sep 18, 2011 8:17 am

Actually, I do have one more question - how did this go from 'a good thread starter' to another debate on mixing? Speaking of, how does a person prove that he/she no longer has a mixed tank?

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Re: Breeding for specific traits - Thoughts ?

Postby markpulawski » Sun Sep 18, 2011 9:08 am

I think the first post was interesting and a good question to ask however keeping as much genetic diversity available for specific morphs is of the upmost importance. Smaller frogs for our tanks is a good thing because no one will be able to offer any frogs the true amount of space they would need in captivity compared to the wild...so the assumption smaller frogs in most cases should be happier in smaller spaces is a premise most of us would be inclined to agree with (obligates being the exception). Taking the smallest examples of a morph would lead to line breeding charactersitics out of a morph and hurt the viability of the captive population of the available animals of that morph we have to work with. This conversation should have nothing to do with mixing but is a good one to have. As for you proving to people that you don't mix...well all you can do is the best that you can, admitting mistakes and what you learn in the process is good enough for me.

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Re: Breeding for specific traits - Thoughts ?

Postby guppygal » Sun Sep 18, 2011 10:16 am

This is where the collaborative efforts of breeders with different lines would come in. I don't know anything about breeding for specific traits, and that's why I asked. I'm sure it would take generations and multiple lines to achieve a smaller frog (obligates and imis excluded).

So, in the meantime, while I try to start a thread to learn something, I get slammed with the mixing thing. All I can say is thank goodness the school year has started and teachers are accepting my offer of free pdfs for their classrooms. I'm down to my last two oldies, but goodies, and the Leucs which will take over the tank. The rest of my collection reside in their own tanks.

I'll get back to my lurking, now ~

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Re: Breeding for specific traits - Thoughts ?

Postby Philsuma » Sun Sep 18, 2011 11:32 am

now see..ya went an' took it personal agin'.....

I guess I should have doctored and edited that sticky I reposted here to remove any reference to mixing, but I was too lazy....

There will never be any large scale breeder collaboration. Never. No exotic animal hobby has it and Americans are way too hard headed to join together for the sake of a measly old animal or two. The best we can do is maintain a general integrity and a ethic, where the majority is very vocal and new members subscribe and carry on. There are always hobbyists that mix and line breed and there always will be. We just have to present the hobby as able to be just as fun and "awesome" without having to manipulate lines and be mad scientists. Speaking of mad science....if someone wants to genetically engineer something, try fruit flies !

*Disclaimer* - This post is not to be taken personally. It is only my opinion and as such, is stated in general terms for the express purpose of furtherance of the subject or topic and is NOT a direct communication to the original poster (OP).

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Re: Breeding for specific traits - Thoughts ?

Postby guppygal » Sun Sep 18, 2011 12:46 pm

Yup, I did. Did I mention that I am way too thin-skinned when it comes to my babies? Heck, I'm just too thin-skinned for forums, period. I'd love to talk about frogs, their natural beauty, and the various techniques used in making their awesome rainforest homes. IMO, I would rather see another avenue of creating a better frog instead of constantly damning they mixers and hybridizers. And, no - I would NEVER cross-breed my babies. I emphatically oppose hybridization. IMO, out of site, out of mind, and although I've been bullied into dismantling my tank, I believe that a more positive approach can be taken. If sellers refrain from mentioning 'mixed tanks' in their ads, I'm thinking that buyers wouldn't even consider it.

For the most part, I'm looking to engage in some level-headed, informative threads with hobbyists who can teach me rather than berate me. There is so much info on the boards that it's fairly difficult to cut thru the crap. Sometimes, what has been said is worth repeating in a polite response. I try to remember that there are real live folks behind those avatars.

k

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Re: Breeding for specific traits - Thoughts ?

Postby RichFrye » Sun Sep 18, 2011 2:19 pm

guppygal wrote: ...Heck, I'm just too thin-skinned for forums, period...


...For the most part, I'm looking to engage in some level-headed, informative threads with hobbyists who can teach me rather than berate me.



k


Therein lies the problem. A person who KNOWS and even posts she is too thinned skin to be typing away, but insists on doing so (instead of reading all the info at her fingertips, berating -free) and insists people are berating her.
Looking at it in a level headed manner, which would be the easiest 'fix'?

To add to the topic at hand , just because...
No , you should not attempt to breed tiny frogs. For a large number of reasons. One of which is that we simply need to breed our frogs as true to nature as possible. There are many, many threads on selective breeding and it's down sides.
I suggest that if someone thinks their vivs are too small , go larger or go home.
Darts with parasites are analogous to mixed tanks, there are no known benefits to the frogs with either.


If tone is more important to you than content, you are at the wrong place.

My new email address is rich.frye@icloud.com and new phone number is 773 577 3476

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Re: Breeding for specific traits - Thoughts ?

Postby Philsuma » Sun Sep 18, 2011 2:22 pm

I hear you. The BIG hobby participation hurdle is getting "face time" at local gatherings and meets. THAT is so important and when people see and "feel" each other...true progress gets made - 100 times faster than thru the forum venue / posting and pm's and such. That's why I was very saddened to hear of your exclusion at Casper's upcoming meet. While everyone has an absolute right to limit who enters their home - I would.....I would only bar the frog thief, the smugglers and the flippers that owe people money. That's where I personally draw the line. I have been to 5 Maryland gatherings, 3 in NJ and 2 in NY and 2 here in PA, as well as close to 100 "Reptile Shows". I've yet to see someone get so out of hand that they had to be shown the door.

IMO...it certainly IS possible to enjoy this hobby with PM's, emails and such. But I personally feel the forums and the especially the gatherings are where it's all at. I've made a lot of friends through those 2 venues that I feel, I never would have made otherwise.

Just my .02 ducats.

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Re: Breeding for specific traits - Thoughts ?

Postby markpulawski » Sun Sep 18, 2011 4:50 pm

I don't think anyone said their vivs are too small just that smaller frogs would be better accomodated in vivs that we keep, no matter what their size. There is a big difference between the 2 statements. It would be great if all vivs were 100 gallons or so but most range in the 20 - 30 gallon size, breeding frogs so they change and better fit these vivs is not the answer but it is good thought provoking conversation.

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Re: Breeding for specific traits - Thoughts ?

Postby RichFrye » Sun Sep 18, 2011 5:03 pm

markpulawski wrote:I don't think anyone said their vivs are too small just that smaller frogs would be better accomodated in vivs that we keep, no matter what their size. There is a big difference between the 2 statements.

My bad.
To address this, no, smaller sized frogs will not be the answer to vivs not of optimal size or lacking in husbandry.


markpulawski wrote:... breeding frogs so they change and better fit these vivs is not the answer but it is good thought provoking conversation.


How thought provoking can it really be if you dismiss the idea in one quick swoop?? I do also, BTW.
Darts with parasites are analogous to mixed tanks, there are no known benefits to the frogs with either.


If tone is more important to you than content, you are at the wrong place.

My new email address is rich.frye@icloud.com and new phone number is 773 577 3476

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Re: Breeding for specific traits - Thoughts ?

Postby Philsuma » Sun Sep 18, 2011 5:19 pm

That's like saying....since the Chinese and Asian people tend to live in smaller housing and with less space - maybe any given "pet" can be shrunk to accommodate this ?

Weren't pigs engineered to be portable and smaller for the Vietnamese - pot bellied pigs ?

To all that I would say....if you don't have the space for at least a 20 gallon tank....you shouldn't be keeping frogs. How about a betta fish instead ?

We already have flippers who live by stacking frogs in smaller sterlite bins....we don't need to give THEM any help.....

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Re: Breeding for specific traits - Thoughts ?

Postby guppygal » Sun Sep 18, 2011 5:36 pm

Philsuma wrote:I hear you. The BIG hobby participation hurdle is getting "face time" at local gatherings and meets. THAT is so important and when people see and "feel" each other...true progress gets made - 100 times faster than thru the forum venue / posting and pm's and such. That's why I was very saddened to hear of your exclusion at Casper's upcoming meet. While everyone has an absolute right to limit who enters their home -


No one's fault but my own, and I bear no ill will toward Casper. Maybe, one day, we'll get to meet and talk frog - that would be so cool!

Rich, I appreciate your kind response, in your own special way - thank you very much.

Overall, I was trying to explore another dimension of the hobby, and that being how large or how small the frogs are. I've seen wild caught Cobalts only once, and I noticed that they seemed to be about 20% larger than the c/b Cobalts. Is this normal? If so, why would c/b frogs be smaller to begin with? And then it occurred to me that it might be possible to produce c/b frogs smaller than normal. This is what started the thread.

As a side-note, I'd really like to see the 'friendly' part of this board, especially for those of us who are thin-skinned.

k

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Re: Breeding for specific traits - Thoughts ?

Postby RichFrye » Sun Sep 18, 2011 5:52 pm

guppygal wrote:As a side-note, I'd really like to see the 'friendly' part of this board, especially for those of us who are thin-skinned.

k


Did you want that friendlyness from Casper, or Phil? Maybe from me or Beth? We're the mean guys and gall who're "bullying you", and "berating you". No victims, only volunteers...
Darts with parasites are analogous to mixed tanks, there are no known benefits to the frogs with either.


If tone is more important to you than content, you are at the wrong place.

My new email address is rich.frye@icloud.com and new phone number is 773 577 3476


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