First auratus embryos

Eggs, Tadpoles, Froglets
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Philsuma
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Re: First auratus embryos

Postby Philsuma » Mon Jun 02, 2014 2:20 pm

looks fine to me. The Almond leaves will continue to release tannins so a little darkening will continue to occur. When you siphon some detritus along with water, there will be a dilution of the tannins.

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ZenMonkey
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Re: First auratus embryos

Postby ZenMonkey » Tue Jun 03, 2014 6:51 pm

First tad has hatched! Oddly enough, it was upside down. Is this usual? (I did read about the "bubble tads" but it doesn't look like that.) I gently swished the water around it to turn it back over and it seems to be fine. Definitely alive and hasn't flipped back over.

I've been trying not to disturb them so I never saw their teeny tadpole eyes until today! Wow.
A girl named Joey.

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Re: First auratus embryos

Postby Philsuma » Tue Jun 03, 2014 10:10 pm

keep water up to the sides of the eggs and allow the tadpoles to grow and break free on their own.

There is almost no detriment to waiting and allowing them to grow on the petri dish or wherever the eggs were laid as long as the moisture and water is up to the egg (not over top).

There is INDEED a possibility of mortality if you assist them /cut the egg / manipulate them ect.

I would resist the urge to 'help them out' and try to disturb them as little as possible.

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Re: First auratus embryos

Postby ZenMonkey » Wed Jun 04, 2014 1:18 am

That is the reason I'm asking about the upside-down tadpole, that being a situation I have not read anything about. I have no idea whether they're okay on their backs. Otherwise I have no plans to do anything at least until they're all hatched.
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Re: First auratus embryos

Postby Philsuma » Wed Jun 04, 2014 3:37 am

I've had them appear to be upside down. They reorient themselves as they grow. I wondered how they would get air but they end up growing out just fine without assistance.

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Re: First auratus embryos

Postby ZenMonkey » Wed Jun 04, 2014 4:04 am

Thank you, that is good to know. The upside down one still had some remnants of external gills so maybe that's how it was breathing.
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DianeCarter
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Re: First auratus embryos

Postby DianeCarter » Wed Jun 04, 2014 11:10 pm

Congrats, Joey! It is sooo exciting, isn't it?
How many more eggs do you have that still look good?
My imitators, being egg-feeders, would morph out one at a time, spread out over time. On the other hand, my auratus (that worked out for me), came all in a group, two groups, actually. My auratus, both adults and juvies, are shy, so I don't see them a lot. But when I see the juvies now, and they are almost adults, I still think back, remembering, when they were eggs, tads, etc. Very cool!!!
Pumilio bastimentos, R. benedictas, P. Terribilis orange, R. Imitator Cainarachi Valley, D. Leucomelas, D. Auratus, D. Azureus, P. vittatus, D. cobalts, D.Oyapok, Bombina Orientalis

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Re: First auratus embryos

Postby ZenMonkey » Thu Jun 05, 2014 1:49 am

Let's see, I have three more almost-ready-to-pop tads in the same clutch as the hatched one, and ten embryos at the stage where they don't look like eggs anymore, and another six embryos I'm not positive will make it, and a clutch from a couple of days ago that has 15 good-looking eggs.

I'm actually going to be trading the tadpoles away, so I won't see most of them grow up, but I have a feeling at some point I'll keep at least a couple and raise them to adults for the exact reason you mention. :-)

The embryos that don't look awesome are from a clutch that I scraped off a leaf. I was able to keep them oriented correctly but I still think I disturbed the eggs and jelly too much. If a frog lays on a leaf that's easily removable from the viv, can that leaf just be cut to size and put into a petri dish?
A girl named Joey.

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Re: First auratus embryos

Postby joneill809 » Thu Jun 05, 2014 8:10 am

Yes, just cut the leaf back and place it in the dish and you should be good to go.
Jim from Austin please contact me if you are willing to trade offspring from:
lorenzo - schwinn line|NAIB true sips|fantastica nominant
http://www.oneillscrossing.com/dart-frogs/

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Re: First auratus embryos

Postby ZenMonkey » Sat Jun 07, 2014 7:03 pm

So the last three in the first dish have hatched, but they're still in the dish for now. Crazy enough, two from the second clutch have also hatched today, and another looks like it might be trying to. Wasn't expecting that -- time to make some more cups! (I do have eight cups that have been sitting around long enough, so no homeless tads yet.)

I can definitely see why people are tempted to help out a tad that's actively trying to escape the egg. The thing does look like it's in distress and it doesn't seem like too much of an interference. I'm glad I knew enough not to do that because they've all hatched fine on their own. The one in the cup still isn't moving, but it's not dead.

I know you don't feed for at least the first 3-4 days, but I thought by then the tadpole would be moving. Should I drop some spirulina or a tadpole bite in the first cup? The tadpole has spent a couple of days in the petri dish and a couple more in the cup.
A girl named Joey.

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Re: First auratus embryos

Postby Philsuma » Sat Jun 07, 2014 7:35 pm

3-4 days free from egg should be good to drop a single tad bite in. As long as the leaf is in there, they can graze on that too.

Wait until you are lucky enough to see a tadpole 'pop it's fronts'. It looks exactly like Houdini trying to get out of a straight jacket. Pretty violent.

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Re: First auratus embryos

Postby ZenMonkey » Sun Jun 08, 2014 12:27 am

Well, today's final count: three new tadpople cups (four in total from the first clutch), and four more newly hatched tadpoles in the second clutch which will stay there for at least a day. All eight have hatched with their external gills, but the first four's were gone within 24 hours or so.

The four in the dish have their cups waiting; I just made four more to sit for a little while since no more tadpoles are immediately ready to pop, and started aging some more water. Whew! This has definitely been trial by fire, and a little stressful (because it's new and I want to get it right, not because it's actually stressful), but also totally fascinating and wonderful. This is such a great hobby for someone like me: adores animals and biology and is mostly housebound. :D

Phil, what a perfect description of the tadpole struggling! I can totally visualize that. Thanks so much to you and everyone in this thread for your help during this. I feel really good knowing I'm giving these guys the best care based on advice from people with so much experience.

P.S. By the way, I know some people use Slurpee straws to move the tads. Could you clue me in to a little technique there? I've been "flooding" the petri dish with water that's the same temp as the tads, and then sort of scooping under them with the straw. However, they're remarkably good at squiggling away, and even though it's gone well so far, I don't want to stress them out too much. I do also have a turkey baster and a steady hand, so that's still an option.
A girl named Joey.

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Re: First auratus embryos

Postby joneill809 » Sun Jun 08, 2014 9:01 am

Glad everything is working out Joey! I used both methods - flushing tads from the dish with water and moving with straws. I always freaked out trying to wiggle the straw under the tad - I always worried about cutting them. Over time I found the water method easier for me, but I think it's one of those personal preference things.

To muddy things up even more, I just had a long conversation with Marcus @ SNDF last night and he gave me lots of advice on how he reared tads when he had his operation going. He kept his petri dishes in drawers with a thin layer of water in the bottom to keep the humidity up. He misted and flushed them with tad tea, not MB. He mixed his tad tea from blackwater extract that he bought in 5 gallon buckets (I'll stick with my 8 oz container) and he did not worry so much about how dark it was - he usually went for the color of iced tea which would match the water he saw tads reared in on collection trips. He found tad tea to be more effective at mold control.

He also group reared tads in shoe box containers with tad tea, leaves and water changes 2x per week. He said he ran several experiments where he kept 1 tad in a shoe box and multiple tads in another, and the group tads yielded larger froglets. He was not sure why, but he said he didn't really suffer losses with cannibalism, and this was the method he used for rearing 2 to 3 thousand frogs per year.

Interesting data point, but as he pointed out, this is what worked for him, and there's dozens of different ways that work. Anyhow the idea of group rearing was intriguing - it may be something you want to experiment with - I'll probably give it a go this summer with a few spare shoe box containers.

Good luck and keep us posted on how things are going!
Jim from Austin please contact me if you are willing to trade offspring from:
lorenzo - schwinn line|NAIB true sips|fantastica nominant
http://www.oneillscrossing.com/dart-frogs/

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Re: First auratus embryos

Postby ZenMonkey » Mon Jun 09, 2014 12:01 am

Interesting information, Jim, thanks! Especially Marcus's experiences. I've heard of people having experiences both that a. rearing in groups produces stronger/more froglets and b. rearing in groups means cannibalism. I decided to go with cups at first but have been planning to eventually give group rearing a try, for space-saving reasons if no other.

Speaking of which, funny enough I did that same thing with the drawer and a layer of water because I had a new clutch and no more room in my "humidubator." (A plastic shoebox with a couple of vent holes in the side, where the dishes sit on top of an inch or so of charcoal with water right up to the dishes. Basically the same idea, but portable.) It does work really well and I'm sure I'll be using it more!

About MB, I use it really sparingly so far. (Everything is "so far" of course and subject to change.) One-two spritzes of the really dilute stuff on a new petri dish, and maybe one more if I have to remove moldy eggs. Then one spritz per tadpole cup. I mist with spring water as was suggested here, but I have been interested in the idea of misting with tadpole tea. I might try that. Unfortunately my area is not controlled enough for temperature and humidity for me to do really good testing, so it'll just be trial and error within boundaries for a bit.

Oh, and yeah, I agree with you on the extract. What he does is impressive but out of my league. :D
A girl named Joey.

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Re: First auratus embryos

Postby Stu&Shaz » Tue Jun 17, 2014 8:50 am

Joey first up grats,second Phil and Diane are right this never gets old. 3rd a quick note,looking at the back, ie the tail end of a tad's body will give you clues as to when it has absorbed the yolk and needs feeding,plus also give you clues that it has actually started feeding,look at the shape mate you'll see.

I use a tad tea made from Aldercone,it's great for clobbering mold in eggs as I'm told it contains a natural fungicide and bacteriacide. We have a brief problem way back with mouth fungus,it has totally removed that too. It doesn't seem to be as widely used as other tad teas,but seems to work incredibly well. I've passed this on to a few guys here and more than once it has removed problems for them aswell. Me being me I like the fact it's natural,even better though is the fact we can walk along a river here and pick the cones for nothing :lol:

good luck mate

Stu

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Re: First auratus embryos

Postby ZenMonkey » Mon Jun 23, 2014 4:34 pm

Update: Thanks everyone for all the help! Three of the first four tadpoles seem to be doing very well and growing every day. One is far, far smaller but is still hanging in. From the second batch I have one or two that are as big as the first batch! Out of 20-22 cups I think two so far might have died after being transferred.

I've been rotating tadpole bites and spirulina powder every 3-4 days once the yolk has been absorbed (Stu, I see just what you mean about the tail), plus they're definitely nibbling on the almond leaf. I thought I was prepared from reading here but MAN, are they prolific poopers when they start feeding. I've been sucking out detritus and poop and adding fresh spring water as needed whenever I feed a bite. As they get bigger I also increase the water level; I've been starting at about an inch and adding more as they grow. The biggest tads' cups (16 oz) are almost half full now.
A girl named Joey.


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