Ethics in the Dart Frog Hobby - start thread

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edwardsatc
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Re: Ethics in the Dart Frog Hobby - start thread

Postby edwardsatc » Sat Apr 23, 2011 1:48 pm

According to CITES, Costa Rica has allowed the export of 212 pumilio, 3 auratus, and 25 Dendrobates spp. These exports all occurred between 1992 and 1995. So where did all those Blue Jeans exports come from in the 90’s? Answer: Nicaragua exported over 28,000 pumilio between 1987 and 2001. This number does not include all of the pumilio identified as “re-export”.

Re-export numbers are a bit tricky when it comes to CITES reporting. Often, animals identified as re-exported animals are in fact animals from the country of origin but have either been placed in the category inappropriately or have been improperly reported on the permits. For example, nearly all of Mark Peppers exports from Peru to Canada have been reported in the CITES database as “re-exports”, which we know is not the case.

CITES data is far from perfect and to complicate things even more not all countries report data in the same way. For example, some countries report exports as the number animals allowed under the permits issued, while others report as the actual number of animals that left the country.

Anyway, when it comes to legality , it is always important to look at the data rather than listening to what Joe Frogger tells you about what has or has not been legally exported in the past or present.

And we should remember that legal does not always equal ethical.


Donn

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Re: Ethics in the Dart Frog Hobby - start thread

Postby Philsuma » Sat Apr 23, 2011 3:37 pm

Donn,

Superb work studying and collating those CITES documents !

If you could ever put pen to paper on a full-on historic accounting of what we are up against - bearing in mind that CITES numbers and documents are not 100% complete, but it would still be effective and useful.

It would be HUGE for the hobby.....HUGE.

I'm ready to assist in any way that you need.

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Re: Ethics in the Dart Frog Hobby - start thread

Postby edwardsatc » Sat Apr 23, 2011 4:42 pm

Phil,

I've been working on compiling a list of all CITES documented live commercial exports of Dendrobatids for a while now. The big problem is that the data can sometimes be difficult to sift through. The whole re-export thing is difficult to get through, countries have different standards for reporting, some of the data is reported in duplicate, permitted export vs. actual export, etc, etc ...

I'm currently entering the data into my own database in order to have better control with sorting the data. The results certainly won't be 100% accurate but should give us a good picture of what species have or have not been legally exported.

Obviously, the data cannot be used to determine what localities/color morphs have been legally exported but that is out of our control. We can, however, make some assumptions about morphs. For example, an Ecuadorian morph of histrionicus is far more likely to have been legally exported than a Colombian histrionicus morph. Thousands of histrionicus have been documented leaving Ecuador vs only 11 from Colombia.

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Re: Ethics in the Dart Frog Hobby - start thread

Postby edwardsatc » Sat Apr 23, 2011 4:54 pm

Dig deep enough and you'd be surprised what comes up. How many people know that Panama exported 50 live, captive bred histrionicus for commercial purposes in 2001?

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Re: Ethics in the Dart Frog Hobby - start thread

Postby edwardsatc » Sun Apr 24, 2011 11:43 pm

Phil,

I've put all the data (all instances of pdf exports and re-exports from all countries) in an excel spreadsheet that can be sorted by export country, import country, export purpose, species, etc. I can send it to you if you'd like. Maybe two heads are better than one.

I've emailed Mark Pepper to see if he can give me some insight as to why many exports are listed as re-exports, when in fact they are not. Many of his exports from Peru are listed as re-exports, so he may be able to clear that up.

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Re: Ethics in the Dart Frog Hobby - start thread

Postby Philsuma » Sun May 08, 2011 5:57 pm

Thanks...PM sent.

We can continue to work at it and try to get it into a usable / easy read for reposting.

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Re: Ethics in the Dart Frog Hobby - start thread

Postby Philsuma » Wed Aug 31, 2011 5:21 pm

Some species specific info that's cropped up in the "10 year advancement" thread.

United States LEGAL importation of these species occurred:

1. Dendrobates leucomelas - numerous imports, several different years from Venezuela and Guyana. 100% legal

2. Oophaga Histrionica - Colombia did legal commercial export to the U.S in the 1990's. The root issue is - if it is possible that those imports or progeny can still be alive @ 20 years later. The Colombian government in partnership with the U.S F&W refuses to allow additional frogs of this species into the U.S. Draw your own conclusions as to the legality of keeping this particular animal. Is it "prosecutable" ? Unless outright seized in import.....doubtful otherwise.

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Re: Ethics in the Dart Frog Hobby - start thread

Postby guppygal » Wed Aug 31, 2011 6:11 pm

For those of us who are a bit slow, are you saying that because histrionicus were imported in the 90's, there won't be anymore imports due to the fact that frogs properly kept and cared for may live many years - does that mean 'no more new bloodlines'? Does it also mean that keeping a cb histrionicus might be illegal? Is there a way to determine the age of a frog without a document to back it up? And how does one locate CITES information?

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Re: Ethics in the Dart Frog Hobby - start thread

Postby Philsuma » Wed Aug 31, 2011 6:23 pm

For those of us who are a bit slow, are you saying that because histrionicus were imported in the 90's, there won't be anymore imports ?

Doubtful due to Colombia and USWF Agreement on no commerical trade.

Due to the fact that frogs properly kept and cared for may live many years?

Dunno what you are asking here...

Does that mean 'no more new bloodlines'?

Correct....see answer #1. I doubt we will see any E.U bloodlines due to same reason.

Does it also mean that keeping a CB histrionicus might be illegal ?

"might" is a tough word to work with. While legal and illegal is supposed to be "black and white", we all know better. Is there such a thing as "selective prosecution - ignore some, go after some ? Yes indeed.

Is there a way to determine the age of a frog without a document to back it up ?

No way that I know of. DNA ? Toe clip testing ? "Expert Testimony from an uber frogger ? I still doubt it. I think it would b very hard to introduce THAT evidence in a court of law.

And how does one locate CITES information ?

CITES info for a given singular animal ? Unsure what you mean here...

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Re: Ethics in the Dart Frog Hobby - start thread

Postby guppygal » Wed Aug 31, 2011 7:09 pm

For those of us who are a bit slow, are you saying that because histrionicus were imported in the 90's, there won't be anymore imports ?

Doubtful due to Colombia and USWF Agreement on no commerical trade.

Due to the fact that frogs properly kept and cared for may live many years?

Dunno what you are asking here...

I was trying to rationalize the reason for no more frogs from Colombia. I guess I should have read closer - no more 'trade' of anything from Colombia, right? It's not just the fact that the frogs can live for many years and we should have enough already.

Does that mean 'no more new bloodlines'?

Correct....see answer #1. I doubt we will see any E.U bloodlines due to same reason.

Does it also mean that keeping a CB histrionicus might be illegal ?

"might" is a tough word to work with. While legal and illegal is supposed to be "black and white", we all know better. Is there such a thing as "selective prosecution - ignore some, go after some ? Yes indeed.

Is there a way to determine the age of a frog without a document to back it up ?

No way that I know of. DNA ? Toe clip testing ? "Expert Testimony from an uber frogger ? I still doubt it. I think it would b very hard to introduce THAT evidence in a court of law.

And how does one locate CITES information ?

CITES info for a given singular animal ? Unsure what you mean here...

Is there a CITES database online or is it in a building where you send a SASE?

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Re: Ethics in the Dart Frog Hobby - start thread

Postby Philsuma » Wed Aug 31, 2011 8:09 pm

Colombia is actually pursuing numerous animal conservation initiatives and does indeed put money into anti smuggling efforts and prosecution. I have a friend who is actually 1/2 Colombian and 1/2 Dutch and while he has told me a ton of interesting things about the country.

#1 - Getting a permit to export animals - you'd have a better chance of flying the space shuttle.

#2 - Anti-Drugs, cartels and terrorists all get the lions share of funding. But that doesn't mean it's easy to smuggle wildlife. It is not AND they will toss you in jail and throw away the key - just like for drugs.


CITES info and personal contact address are all online I believe.

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Re: Ethics in the Dart Frog Hobby - start thread

Postby guppygal » Wed Aug 31, 2011 8:26 pm

I know for a fact that I do not ever want to visit Colombia. I also know that I'd rather have a cb frog than wc, but that's my personal option. In my own little weird way, I think it's better to build with the resources we have than to deplete the resources we don't own.

You know there's a few decommissioned shuttles around the states. Bummer that Houston didn't get one ~ I suppose the only way I get to experience that kind of weightlessness is scuba diving. It's such a serene sport..... ;)

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Re: Ethics in the Dart Frog Hobby - start thread

Postby Michael Lawrence » Wed Aug 31, 2011 9:21 pm

Phil are you talking about Fred? I only ask as he quit messaging me a bit back, I figured he left for good. Its not just the arrest you need to worry about. Take a trip out to even photograph the frogs and you can come up missing out there., Even with the conservation efforts and an export agreement you have to wonder how safe this will be.

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Re: Ethics in the Dart Frog Hobby - start thread

Postby Philsuma » Fri Sep 30, 2011 12:04 pm

No...my friend runs a beer truck in SoFl.

But I did speak with Fred by phone a couple times.

Colombia, Venezuela and probably even Bolivia.....take out kidnapping insurance thru Loyds of London.

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Re: Ethics in the Dart Frog Hobby - start thread

Postby Philsuma » Fri Jun 01, 2012 2:56 pm

time to dust off this thread....I'm actually quite partial to it. Hope you don't mind.

When I "do" part 2.0 of my Frogging Hobby in Florida....I hope to have a room where I can tell everyone who visits, exactly who each frog in my collection came from. Not that I couldn't do it with my 1.0 frog room, but I would really like to be 'tight' about it and really clear. I feel it's important.

I have no doubt that 3/4 of the 'longer term' frog rooms / collections that you can think of would have animals where you would NOT be told where they came from or possibly misdirected.

That brings up another point...newbies...that's why I enjoy helping and guiding them. The 'big bright lights" haven't gotten to them yet, and there's a real, tangible opportunity to guide and help them on their path.

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Re: Ethics in the Dart Frog Hobby - start thread

Postby Rusty_Shackleford » Fri Jun 01, 2012 3:19 pm

Thank you for dusting this off Phil. I think EVERY hobbyist should read this thread. As I've stated before in a previous thread, you actions become your reputation.
I have to ask you what you mean by "big bright lights"
Thanks in advance for explaining this.
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Re: Ethics in the Dart Frog Hobby - start thread

Postby Philsuma » Fri Jun 01, 2012 3:37 pm

Thanks Jon. I appreciate that you think highly of my 'attempt' at Ethics discussion here on DD.

"Big Bright Lights"....heh

That's when the newbie is lured by the expensive, rare, hard to get, must have, gotta, gotta have animals. It's most often "diagnosed" when you see someone with .8 years of frogging experience and only 2 different species under their belt, asking about blue jeans, histos, Sylvies, grannies ect.

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Re: Ethics in the Dart Frog Hobby - start thread

Postby Rusty_Shackleford » Fri Aug 03, 2012 3:06 pm

That's kind of what I thought you were getting at, I just didn't want to assume that.
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Re: Ethics in the Dart Frog Hobby - start thread

Postby Rusty_Shackleford » Wed Aug 22, 2012 8:01 am

I'm somewhat appalled at what appear to be a general lack of ethics in the frog hobby. I think there is really a handful of serious, hardcore hobbyists that have good ethics, and then a whole bunch of people who just don't care or don't think. Perhaps it just takes time in the hobby to develop that sense of ethics and morals in order to make the right decision. I'm not just talking about not acquiring illegal frogs, or screwing over someone in a transaction. Bigger picture. Take for example a frogger who is producing 10 clutches of E. anthonyi S.I., or producing lots of clutches of an unpopular frog that no one will ever buy. What's gonna happen to all those frogs that they aren't going to be able to re-home? What's gonna happen to the frogger when he gets tired and burnt out from taking care of all those tads? What's gonna happen when he sees $$$ in his eyes first, as opposed to a passion for the frogs. These are the same hobbyists that turn over their "beginner" frogs in less than a year to try and keep "rarer" species without ever really learning what they are doing with the "beginner" species. This is good motivation, as a seller, to ask people interested in your frogs what their intentions are. You have every right to do so IMO.
Just some thoughts.
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Re: Ethics in the Dart Frog Hobby - start thread

Postby Philsuma » Sun Oct 07, 2012 6:00 pm

I just checked the 'views' of this particular thread. I wonder if people are either scared or showing disdain for this topic as evidenced by the small number of views. Interesting....


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