Can we truly be 'happy' with imported frogs ?

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Philsuma
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Can we truly be 'happy' with imported frogs ?

Postby Philsuma » Sun Mar 10, 2013 2:08 pm

I saw the start of this, broached by Justin in the Ryan/Escudo thread and have long though it deserved enough spotlight and space to warrant it's own thread. Please try to contribute in an 'esteemed' manner here and we will see if we can't generate enough discussion to warrant it sticky-ed.

Firstly...the word 'Happy". I think we are ALL happy to see new,healthy, vibrant frogs - no question there, but are we SATISFIED ? I for one, am not and here's why.

Let's take Panama for example, since Oophaga pumilio importation seems to be a hot topic right now. I'll start off with some bullet points to get the thread rolling and then we can organically move from there.

1. There is still no evidence of true frog farming - where a froglet is raised and exported as a sub adult.

2. Verifiable GPS is not happening. See #1 for the reason.

3. Panama is a CITES member Nation but chooses to not abide by the normal imposed animal quotas. I may need some help on this on from some of you, as I don't have my usual saved folder on this handy.

4. VERY nice strides have been made with shipping, care, housing and quick redistribution of Panamanian dart frogs exports to drastically lower mortality.

5. Everyone appreciates having access to these wonderful frogs and knows that someday 'The spigot may be shut off" and they will not be available.

6."Sustainable Harvesting" ? We have no data to claim that anything is unsustainable. Even researchers say that most species of Central American dart frogs are of 'least Concern" and have very healthy populations. They also exist nicely in a lot of niche environments of disturbed habitat near human habitation.

7. We cannot be satisfied with 'business as usual" because even though there are many positives to be found in the above listed instances...we cannot relax or let up trying to advance the hobby and shoot for the holy grail of animal exportation - True Farming and accurate GPS data.

8. ANY farming operation is more costly than letting mother nature do it herself and then just harvest the animals. This is actually the way it's been done for centuries. "Growing" animals in glass boxes is at least 10 times harder and more costly.

some thoughts.

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Re: Can we truly be 'happy' with imported frogs ?

Postby sidney ferrell » Sun Mar 10, 2013 4:15 pm

Good post phil.

1. There is still no evidence of true frog farming - where a froglet is raised and exported as a sub adult.

On this point--- shouldn't and couldn't be as easy as ray requesting some more in depth photographs of the operations within the farm and some visual proof of some legit breeding such as - breeding setups,eggs,tads---froglets and maybe putting this first point/doubt to rest? I mean it has to be very simple to do one of the above i would imagine. The place should be crawling with froglets!

I mean, just looking at the website and some of the outdoor setups, theres gotta be some accidental froglets hopping around no? That may not prove full 100% captive breeding but some breeding at the least.

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Re: Can we truly be 'happy' with imported frogs ?

Postby Philsuma » Sun Mar 10, 2013 5:08 pm

It hasn't happened yet. Photographs would be good.

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Re: Can we truly be 'happy' with imported frogs ?

Postby pa.walt » Sun Mar 10, 2013 7:54 pm

http://gfol1.dendrobates-breeding-frog. ... 644391.jpg
i don't know how to post a pic. how about this hope it came up

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Re: Can we truly be 'happy' with imported frogs ?

Postby Philsuma » Sun Mar 10, 2013 8:00 pm

pa.walt wrote:http://gfol1.dendrobates-breeding-frog.com/DSC00381_ws14644391.jpg
i don't know how to post a pic. how about this hope it came up



Care to add anything re that pic Walt ? We've seen that pic for 4 years now and a lot of us feel it's just a holding facility.

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Re: Can we truly be 'happy' with imported frogs ?

Postby pa.walt » Sun Mar 10, 2013 10:04 pm

this is the first time i have ever seen the pic. i more or less posted it just to post. let anyone decide what they wish to think. it would be nice if it where true.

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Re: Can we truly be 'happy' with imported frogs ?

Postby RichFrye » Mon Mar 11, 2013 11:17 am

pa.walt wrote:http://gfol1.dendrobates-breeding-frog.com/DSC00381_ws14644391.jpg
i don't know how to post a pic. how about this hope it came up




Nobody has told the "farmers" that gravity works the same in Panama as the rest of the world , I guess.
Darts with parasites are analogous to mixed tanks, there are no known benefits to the frogs with either.


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Re: Can we truly be 'happy' with imported frogs ?

Postby frogfreak » Mon Mar 11, 2013 11:46 am

RichFrye wrote:
pa.walt wrote:http://gfol1.dendrobates-breeding-frog.com/DSC00381_ws14644391.jpg
i don't know how to post a pic. how about this hope it came up




Nobody has told the "farmers" that gravity works the same in Panama as the rest of the world , I guess.

:lol:
Glenn

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Re: Can we truly be 'happy' with imported frogs ?

Postby Philsuma » Mon Mar 11, 2013 12:48 pm

They understand gravity well enough, I think. Those upside down cups are retreats, or possibly barriers of some kind. They have to be, because pumilio do not 'glue' or affix eggs. Egg masses need a flat, horizontal surface - almost always live green leaves, bromeliad stems or sometimes dead leaf litter. Anyone have any other deposition sites ?

The second 'Farm Debunk" with that pic is the animal density. The overly large number of animals present would in no way be conducive to optimal breeding. The amount of stress present due to overcrowding would be very significant IMO.

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Re: Can we truly be 'happy' with imported frogs ?

Postby RichFrye » Mon Mar 11, 2013 12:54 pm

Those were supposed to be what passes for deposit sites. There's not a brom or anything else that passes as a deposit site in that whole pen.
The population of pums standing on top of themselves is way higher than it should be for any breeding . It is unnatural.
No matter what people have posted to the contrary in the past.
The collectors took the group they most recently havested and dumped them all on that one branch. Anybody see any other pums in that pen? No.
These pics have been propaganda tools for many years. And they are bad ones at that.
Darts with parasites are analogous to mixed tanks, there are no known benefits to the frogs with either.


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Re: Can we truly be 'happy' with imported frogs ?

Postby Philsuma » Mon Mar 11, 2013 1:14 pm

^ Agree.

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Re: Can we truly be 'happy' with imported frogs ?

Postby pa.walt » Mon Mar 11, 2013 2:18 pm

i guess you could call it a holding pen for future shipment.

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Re: Can we truly be 'happy' with imported frogs ?

Postby RichFrye » Mon Mar 11, 2013 2:32 pm

^ That's exactly what it is Walt.
Grab them, put them in a pen until time to ship. Period.
Anyone telling anybody other-wise is either totally and absolutely ignorant to the facts, or more likely trying to put an absolute spin on a made up situation to sell you frogs. In other words, they are lying to you.
Darts with parasites are analogous to mixed tanks, there are no known benefits to the frogs with either.


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Re: Can we truly be 'happy' with imported frogs ?

Postby RichFrye » Mon Mar 11, 2013 2:54 pm

More time spent on a topic which is so simple in it's answer, yet will NEVER happen the way Panama runs it's pum exports.

If there were enough people who demanded 100% accurate site locale data and demand proof of the info, then the Colombian exporter MAY have an incentive to provide proof of what he is selling.
There are WAY more froggers (many of which are impulse buyers) who don't give two craps about pum locale data, or trust whatever they are told by sellers , so there is in that respect no financial incentive for Sergio to up the info.
There will never be a voluntary farm raising practise going on in Panama, because it cost more money and time(money). Never.
IF CITES puts enough pressure on Panama and IF Panama gives a crap about pressure /compliance THEN AND ONLY then will we see farming. And even then we would still need to TRUST the people involved with the collection AND the exporting.

So, to wrap this up as quick and concise as possible;
There is no farming as Panama represents its pums. It is a sham.
There will never be GPS data of farm raising from Sergio until it is so economically feasible (including all that comes with giving out factual information, not made up names and locales) that it would seem absolutely stupid for him to not give out full disclosure. I can't see a possible way that could happen.

The reason the countries that actually enforce captive and farm breeding never have huge number coming out of any country for long periods of time , or ever for that matter, is that , surprise surprise, obligates don't breed like rat frogs.
The dedicated breeders in country that are willing to actually breed small numbers of any obligates are doing it either in conjunction with other breeding projects and are hoping to make at least a small chunk off of what little breeding they will find...or they are just very cool, dedicated breeders who hope to export some quality animals where there is no doubt about ethics, locale, legality or sustainable harvest for breeding stock.

Panama is a corrupt joke. And they keep getting our money. Look to other countries.
I guarantee it won't be as easy as buying from an ad or calling Jr. in FL , if people are craving quick and easy.
The people who are touching these frogs when picked up, shipped and upon arriving in the U.S. have proven to me that they can not be trusted. That ONE reason alone is enough for me to pass on any of these 'gotta have new morphs'. I don't NEED any frog.
Darts with parasites are analogous to mixed tanks, there are no known benefits to the frogs with either.


If tone is more important to you than content, you are at the wrong place.

My new email address is rich.frye@icloud.com and new phone number is 773 577 3476

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Re: Can we truly be 'happy' with imported frogs ?

Postby BluePumilio » Mon Mar 11, 2013 9:39 pm

I always figured people can have a difference of opinion but at the end of the day still get along, no? I like to remain friendly. :)

RichFrye wrote:The people who are touching these frogs when picked up, shipped and upon arriving in the U.S. have proven to me that they can not be trusted. That ONE reason alone is enough for me to pass on any of these 'gotta have new morphs'. I don't NEED any frog.

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Re: Can we truly be 'happy' with imported frogs ?

Postby Sherman » Mon Mar 11, 2013 11:10 pm

Philsuma wrote:
Let's take Panama for example, since Oophaga pumilio importation seems to be a hot topic right now. I'll start off with some bullet points to get the thread rolling and then we can organically move from there.

1. There is still no evidence of true frog farming - where a froglet is raised and exported as a sub adult.

No evidence of farming of any kind.

Philsuma wrote:2. Verifiable GPS is not happening. See #1 for the reason.

I propose the possibility that land owners either do not want the information disseminated or do not know the frogs are being taken. (The latter would constitute a CITES violation.)

Philsuma wrote:3. Panama is a CITES member Nation but chooses to not abide by the normal imposed animal quotas. I may need some help on this on from some of you, as I don't have my usual saved folder on this handy.

"Farmed" label attached to these wild collected animals to avoid regulation. (See above.)

Philsuma wrote:4. VERY nice strides have been made with shipping, care, housing and quick redistribution of Panamanian dart frogs exports to drastically lower mortality.

Agree. Moving in the right direction. Kudos.

Philsuma wrote:5. Everyone appreciates having access to these wonderful frogs and knows that someday 'The spigot may be shut off" and they will not be available.

Meh. Close it down now. Do it right or not at all. Without the constant supply of imports, perhaps we will be forced to buckle down and take care of what we have, instead of thinking about what we want.

Philsuma wrote:6."Sustainable Harvesting" ? We have no data to claim that anything is unsustainable. Even researchers say that most species of Central American dart frogs are of 'least Concern" and have very healthy populations. They also exist nicely in a lot of niche environments of disturbed habitat near human habitation.

You said it.: "no data". I think you go about it backwards though. What data do we have that these populations can sustain harvest? Especially in light of these more targeted importations. (Yes, I know there are many populations that have large and healthy populations, but some do not.) Keep in mind that researchers have concerns about many of the smaller populations isolated in these niche environments.

Philsuma wrote:7. We cannot be satisfied with 'business as usual" because even though there are many positives to be found in the above listed instances...we cannot relax or let up trying to advance the hobby and shoot for the holy grail of animal exportation - True Farming and accurate GPS data.

Plenty of room for improvement.

Philsuma wrote:8. ANY farming operation is more costly than letting mother nature do it herself and then just harvest the animals. This is actually the way it's been done for centuries. "Growing" animals in glass boxes is at least 10 times harder and more costly.

"Farming" does not necessitate glass boxes. In this instance an area set aside and maintained by a landowner for the purpose of creating a population of frogs that can be sustainably harvested would satisfy my definition of "farmed". We have a chance to change things with every purchase we make, or do not make. ;)

BluePumilio wrote:I always figured people can have a difference of opinion but at the end of the day still get along, no? I like to remain friendly. :)

Interested in your opinions on the topic at hand.

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Re: Can we truly be 'happy' with imported frogs ?

Postby Sherman » Wed Mar 13, 2013 10:39 am

--Crickets--

I do not think we are going to find anyone stepping up on behalf of these imports. At least not publicly in this direct format.

Perhaps under the cloak of anonymity, the true feelings can be found. Anonymous poll?
Unfortunately without someone chiming in on the virtues of these imports, how do we even know what the choices should be?

I think that feelings may be the key here. People may support these imports because of their feelings: pride, egotism, desire, liking, coolness, greed, etcetera. These are all feelings, not the products of rational decision making.

Just trying to understand what I do not comprehend,
Chris Sherman

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Re: Can we truly be 'happy' with imported frogs ?

Postby BluePumilio » Wed Mar 13, 2013 10:47 am

No comment because this discussion is tiresome and pointless. No one with change their minds and it'll just be hashed in circles.

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Re: Can we truly be 'happy' with imported frogs ?

Postby Sherman » Wed Mar 13, 2013 10:54 am

I have yet to hear a clear and concise opposing opinion.

Phil stated a desire to turn this into a sticky. So this would be the definitive platform for this discussion. Your views deserve to be represented.

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Re: Can we truly be 'happy' with imported frogs ?

Postby RichFrye » Wed Mar 13, 2013 11:13 am

The only "people" who should take offence or be concerned with that direct statement would be the people picking up the pums off the jungle floor, Sergio and Jr.
No, I don't get along with the only person to post from that group, Jr.
I like to remain factual and objective. Friendly does not play info facts.


BluePumilio wrote:I always figured people can have a difference of opinion but at the end of the day still get along, no? I like to remain friendly. :)

RichFrye wrote:The people who are touching these frogs when picked up, shipped and upon arriving in the U.S. have proven to me that they can not be trusted. That ONE reason alone is enough for me to pass on any of these 'gotta have new morphs'. I don't NEED any frog.
Darts with parasites are analogous to mixed tanks, there are no known benefits to the frogs with either.


If tone is more important to you than content, you are at the wrong place.

My new email address is rich.frye@icloud.com and new phone number is 773 577 3476


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