Oophaga pumilio import and non site specific

Oophaga arborea
Oophaga granulifera
Oophaga histrionica
Oophaga lehmanni
Oophaga occultator
Oophaga pumilio
Oophaga speciosa
Oophaga sylvatica
Oophaga vicentei
sidney ferrell
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Re: Oophaga pumilio import and non site specific

Postby sidney ferrell » Sat Mar 16, 2013 10:16 pm

Philsuma wrote:This hobby is driven by $$ by some.

The hobby is driven by passion by some.

The hobby is drive by both by a few.

Then dont you think that those driven by the benjamins will slowly but surely be weeded out from our hobby? I mean, this is a huge test for this hobby...theres a guy selling us wc frogs for $200/pop! Now...I feel that we shall seen who bends and breaks and who is smart and takes advantage of all of these animals while they still can...I doubt that we will be able to freely purchase..rio uyama,rambala,esperanza,saltcreek,chiriqui,escudo at semi/wholesale prices ever again. By weeded out...i mean moneymen and true obligate lovers vs obligate posers.

I mean...isnt there stories of bjs and histos being $15/ea at some point due to flooding? Well im sure well get over this too.

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Re: Oophaga pumilio import and non site specific

Postby sidney ferrell » Sat Mar 16, 2013 10:20 pm

All respect to pat nabors...but i bet my mexican ass that hes now raking in more mula than ray jr off of wc pums...but no ones complaining huh?

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Re: Oophaga pumilio import and non site specific

Postby cbreon » Sat Mar 16, 2013 10:48 pm

sidney ferrell wrote:All respect to pat nabors...but i bet my mexican ass that hes now raking in more mula than ray jr off of wc pums...but no ones complaining huh?


Complaining about what? Patrick selling 4-6 month old froglets via a business that has stood the test of time due to its REPUTATION. Or Patrick selling properly sexed and tested/wormed pairs to the public?? Most of us aren't against someone making a little money, but we are against people cutting corners to do so. Come on man, surely you have grasped this by now?!?

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Re: Oophaga pumilio import and non site specific

Postby Philsuma » Sat Mar 16, 2013 10:52 pm

I think PN is making $$ from a diverse Herp business - not just frogs.

Sean S. is making fat stacks from SNAKES....not frogs.

Ray Jr. makes more from Reptiles, I would bet.

Marcus B...well...you see where just Dart Frogs gets ya....

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Re: Oophaga pumilio import and non site specific

Postby sidney ferrell » Sat Mar 16, 2013 11:01 pm

cbreon wrote:
sidney ferrell wrote:All respect to pat nabors...but i bet my mexican ass that hes now raking in more mula than ray jr off of wc pums...but no ones complaining huh?


Complaining about what? Patrick selling 4-6 month old froglets via a business that has stood the test of time due to its REPUTATION. Or Patrick selling properly sexed and tested/wormed pairs to the public?? Most of us aren't against someone making a little money, but we are against people cutting corners to do so. Come on man, surely you have grasped this by now?!?


Where are pats pumilio coming from?!?!!!!! Are they applying for greencards and importing themselves?!??? like i said...those who love pumilio and dont mind making a few bucks along the way...will make damn sure to take advantage of whats being presented to us by jr! Hence---with all due respect to nabors I say!!!!

Craig. How is ray jr cutting corners and taking advantage of our hobby? Please do explain. Your frogs are sndf...sndf cherry picks from ray...Now why would breece ever quit his ever honest precise importing business to just sitback,cut all cost and just walk down the block to cherrypick and sell you frogs better than he ever got a hold of? If there was a better way, then dont you think hed be all over it by now?! Or why dont you just start importing and show us all the correct way to do so?

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Re: Oophaga pumilio import and non site specific

Postby BluePumilio » Sat Mar 16, 2013 11:18 pm

Things are evolving. SR is doing at better job at correctly acclimating and keeping WC frogs, and they the coming in better. I just started bringing in real FARMED animals from CR, and some interesting things are getting set up down there for future imports, including farmed Panama locales. I see everything evolving for the better in all avenues. If you can make an honest buck in the process, go for it! Those dollars let people go after new projects, that includes SR, me, Rich, anyone....gotta pay the bills at the end of the day, no? If you think progress comes cheap, you're wrong. I'm sure you can ask Mark Pepper about that. Heck, I've had a few failed endeavors in foreign countries that took a huge chunk of change and nothing meaningful came of it. The good makes up for the bad!

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Re: Oophaga pumilio import and non site specific

Postby sidney ferrell » Sat Mar 16, 2013 11:25 pm

BluePumilio wrote:Things are evolving. SR is doing at better job at correctly acclimating and keeping WC frogs, and they the coming in better. I just started bringing in real FARMED animals from CR, and some interesting things are getting set up down there for future imports, including farmed Panama locales. I see everything evolving for the better in all avenues. If you can make an honest buck in the process, go for it! Those dollars let people go after new projects, that includes SR, me, Rich, anyone....gotta pay the bills at the end of the day, no? If you think progress comes cheap, you're wrong. I'm sure you can ask Mark Pepper about that. Heck, I've had a few failed endeavors in foreign countries that took a huge chunk of change and nothing meaningful came of it. The good makes up for the bad!

Amen!!! I am all for innovation and progression and still making a few bills along the way to support this dramatic addiction of mine!

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Re: Oophaga pumilio import and non site specific

Postby cbreon » Sun Mar 17, 2013 9:04 am

sidney ferrell wrote:
cbreon wrote:
sidney ferrell wrote:All respect to pat nabors...but i bet my mexican ass that hes now raking in more mula than ray jr off of wc pums...but no ones complaining huh?


Complaining about what? Patrick selling 4-6 month old froglets via a business that has stood the test of time due to its REPUTATION. Or Patrick selling properly sexed and tested/wormed pairs to the public?? Most of us aren't against someone making a little money, but we are against people cutting corners to do so. Come on man, surely you have grasped this by now?!?


Where are pats pumilio coming from?!?!!!!! Are they applying for greencards and importing themselves?!??? like i said...those who love pumilio and dont mind making a few bucks along the way...will make damn sure to take advantage of whats being presented to us by jr! Hence---with all due respect to nabors I say!!!!

Craig. How is ray jr cutting corners and taking advantage of our hobby? Please do explain. Your frogs are sndf...sndf cherry picks from ray...Now why would breece ever quit his ever honest precise importing business to just sitback,cut all cost and just walk down the block to cherrypick and sell you frogs better than he ever got a hold of? If there was a better way, then dont you think hed be all over it by now?! Or why dont you just start importing and show us all the correct way to do so?


Don't get confused Sid, I didn't say anything about Ray Jr. I don't have a problem with Ray as an importer and I like the service Marcus was providing. My problem comes more with the ethical/morale issues of the harvesting of these pumilio and its sustainability.

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Re: Oophaga pumilio import and non site specific

Postby cbreon » Sun Mar 17, 2013 9:09 am

BluePumilio wrote:Things are evolving. SR is doing at better job at correctly acclimating and keeping WC frogs, and they the coming in better. I just started bringing in real FARMED animals from CR, and some interesting things are getting set up down there for future imports, including farmed Panama locales. I see everything evolving for the better in all avenues. If you can make an honest buck in the process, go for it! Those dollars let people go after new projects, that includes SR, me, Rich, anyone....gotta pay the bills at the end of the day, no? If you think progress comes cheap, you're wrong. I'm sure you can ask Mark Pepper about that. Heck, I've had a few failed endeavors in foreign countries that took a huge chunk of change and nothing meaningful came of it. The good makes up for the bad!


I have been one of the people that has been saying things have been evolving for the better all along. But there is still plenty of room for improvement.

Also, Mark Pepper and the Panama pumilio op are polar opposites in every way. It is apparent that the current host of characters involved in the Panama op have no interest in providing a sustainable harvest operation with site-specific animals.

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Re: Oophaga pumilio import and non site specific

Postby Philsuma » Sun Mar 17, 2013 1:46 pm

Vote with your wallet.

As of now, there is ONE exporter in Panama and Peru each. MONEY (and politics to some degree) is ALL that stands in the way.

If Anyone reputable was to fight for, and gain export credibility and back that up with GPS and other innovations...

Then, BLAMO

We would have good ol'e fashioned American competition and monies would follow....

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Re: Oophaga pumilio import and non site specific

Postby BluePumilio » Sun Mar 17, 2013 1:53 pm

Several exporters in Peru, only one has variety, though.


Philsuma wrote:Vote with your wallet.

As of now, there is ONE exporter in Panama and Peru each. MONEY (and politics to some degree) is ALL that stands in the way.

If Anyone reputable was to fight for, and gain export credibility and back that up with GPS and other innovations...

Then, BLAMO

We would have good ol'e fashioned American competition and monies would follow....

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Re: Oophaga pumilio import and non site specific

Postby Philsuma » Tue Mar 19, 2013 4:05 pm

I see where you are taking a 'beating' over your Costa Rican site specific imports, Justin. I think you answered the critics correctly, kept your head and did not overreact.

Good for you, man. Well done.

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Re: Oophaga pumilio import and non site specific

Postby RichFrye » Tue Mar 19, 2013 4:22 pm

Yes, congrats again Justin.
I am quite sure you will have no problems selling the few you are letting go.
Darts with parasites are analogous to mixed tanks, there are no known benefits to the frogs with either.


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Re: Oophaga pumilio import and non site specific

Postby RichFrye » Tue Mar 19, 2013 4:26 pm

Philsuma wrote:I see where you are taking a 'beating' over your Costa Rican site specific imports, Justin. I think you answered the critics correctly, kept your head and did not overreact.

Good for you, man. Well done.


There's number of posts with some bad info on the CR frogs thread, past and present. Some of them with my name involved.
I really hate in when people insist on speculation. I guess it's a social thing. But shear and utter speculation should never be presented as fact.
Darts with parasites are analogous to mixed tanks, there are no known benefits to the frogs with either.


If tone is more important to you than content, you are at the wrong place.

My new email address is rich.frye@icloud.com and new phone number is 773 577 3476

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Re: Oophaga pumilio import and non site specific

Postby Sally » Tue Mar 19, 2013 7:46 pm

Hi Rich,
I am getting a bit uneasy about the "black jeans" info on that thread, somethings are not really adding up. I am not referring to Justin's import, but rather linage info on black jeans in the hobby currently. I have a pair of yours and have some of their now offspring growing up. I would like to do right by them as far to breeding them with the best of possible of mates. I would love to hear your thoughts on this either publicly or privately.
They really are spectacular frogs in their personality as well as looks.
Thanks,
Sally

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Re: Oophaga pumilio import and non site specific

Postby RichFrye » Tue Mar 19, 2013 8:48 pm

Hi Sally, PM sent.
I'll also write a bit on nomenclature and such this week, if I have shaken a chest plague.

Rich
Darts with parasites are analogous to mixed tanks, there are no known benefits to the frogs with either.


If tone is more important to you than content, you are at the wrong place.

My new email address is rich.frye@icloud.com and new phone number is 773 577 3476

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Re: Oophaga pumilio import and non site specific

Postby RichFrye » Thu Mar 21, 2013 3:30 pm

I'm not sure who this VenomR00 person is on DB, but their take on who has what lines and who brought in what is way , way off.
"Frye , EU (which smuggled lines, at which time???) and True " [sic] (what does true mean? One of the thousands of BJ populations ?) ...
are not the BJ lines, not the only lines, and should not be placed into those three and only those three 'lines'.
Same essentially with the Nahn 'lines' :roll: of Blacks and such...there was no collective import from or by the guys who's names have been tagged to these 'lines'.
When in doubt, ask the guy working with them. As opposed to using my name in a definitive manner when guessing or fed bad info...
Since Black Jeans with black legs , as a mean, come from Siquirres, I believe Justin may end up re-naming his imports closer to the actual collection point/s.
Which brings us to 'what to breed with what'. Anyone with any of the 'different ' lines of any CR pum needs to breed that 'line' only with the same 'line'. There are probably hundreds if not thousands of single "BJ" breeding populations from CR to Nicaragua and chances are the 'lines' here are not the exact same. Even one's Sarapiqui line and another will likely be different , as it's like saying "from Illinois".
Gotta keep this somewhat short, fuzzy head and still trying to buck this plague.
Darts with parasites are analogous to mixed tanks, there are no known benefits to the frogs with either.


If tone is more important to you than content, you are at the wrong place.

My new email address is rich.frye@icloud.com and new phone number is 773 577 3476

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Re: Oophaga pumilio import and non site specific

Postby Roadrunner » Fri Mar 22, 2013 7:27 am

What do you think the chances are of keeping them straight w/ that many locales? What are the chances we'll have enough people breeding and keeping frogs to manage even a fraction if they aren't lumped?
"I don't want to believe, I want to know" Carl Sagan(my fav. stoner:)

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Re: Oophaga pumilio import and non site specific

Postby cbreon » Fri Mar 22, 2013 9:17 am

Aaron, I agree that is always the concern, but it seems that there almost needs to be a group of people dictating or suggesting what should and should not be mixed.

This was my point to a similar statement on db:

So, do we then advocate, the mixing of the new Siquirres with Rich's 'Siquirres black jeans,' the mixing of the old line salt creeks with the new salt creeks, del drago colons with old-line colons with EU colons, the mixing of all the bastis, rfb's with others. I understand your point, but I think that is a very slippery slope, and it seems to fly in the face of the general consensus that hybridization and mixing of locales is bad...

I'll add another one, all the popas, which seem to range noticeably in size and phenotype...

Ultimately, we have seen some locales previously imported, fizzle almost out of existence, for example the old line Loma Partida...don't see too many Sheppard Island's either... So, sometimes, limiting the breeding to imports can be bad and result in the loss of a locale from the hobby. But, that also seems to heighten the importance of dedicated management by long-term hobbyists...

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Re: Oophaga pumilio import and non site specific

Postby RichFrye » Fri Mar 22, 2013 10:40 am

aaronsfrogfarm wrote:What do you think the chances are of keeping them straight w/ that many locales? What are the chances we'll have enough people breeding and keeping frogs to manage even a fraction if they aren't lumped?


I think that those who work hard and deal with people they can trust with not only a financial issue but also real hard information can do a great deal better than those with attitudes of "who cares" [sic] and those who deal with ANYBODY, as Harrington does , will never do anything for our hobby other than always attempt to fulfill their own selfish "glass box"[sic] needs.

I happen to (at times) have a little more info than some spouting "WHO CARES!!!"...I care, and I usually have a pretty good idea how to breed what I personally have.
Nahn's "line" of Black Jeans are 100% NOT the same as mine. They should 100% absolutely not be bred with mine. Period.

I'm sure there will be plenty of bullshit takes on what Harrington is spouting over there, but he's wrong in his "who cares" stance and he's wrong on lots of his speculation.
"Who cares" indeed.

Now, I am still sick as hell and don't have the energy yet to post a huge long answer to all the bad info given, but if you have my 'lines' I would say I am the best person to ask, not Nahn or Harrington.
Darts with parasites are analogous to mixed tanks, there are no known benefits to the frogs with either.


If tone is more important to you than content, you are at the wrong place.

My new email address is rich.frye@icloud.com and new phone number is 773 577 3476


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