Pumilio offspring - when to pull / seperate ?

Oophaga arborea
Oophaga granulifera
Oophaga histrionica
Oophaga lehmanni
Oophaga occultator
Oophaga pumilio
Oophaga speciosa
Oophaga sylvatica
Oophaga vicentei
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Re: Pumilio offspring - when to pull / seperate ?

Postby JL-Exotics » Tue Jul 03, 2012 1:05 pm

How often do you find you need to break down a tank and redo the substrate with that set-up?
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Re: Pumilio offspring - when to pull / seperate ?

Postby Philsuma » Tue Jul 03, 2012 1:08 pm

guys...please don't derail...

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Re: Pumilio offspring - when to pull / seperate ?

Postby JL-Exotics » Tue Jul 03, 2012 1:13 pm

How is this derailing??? We're talking about the set-up that has proven successful for pulling pumilio froglets as opposed to leaving them in tank. This is totally part of the discussion as it related to deciding which route to go - pull or leave.
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Re: Pumilio offspring - when to pull / seperate ?

Postby cbreon » Tue Jul 03, 2012 1:13 pm

I have had tanks that have lasted 8 years and counting, as long as you add leaf litter regularly, add soil when needed, and don't let the soil become fully saturated for extended periods of time, I think it should last for a long time....

feel free to snip this Phil and move to a new thread...

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Re: Pumilio offspring - when to pull / seperate ?

Postby cbreon » Tue Jul 03, 2012 1:35 pm

Rich, how about you, anything special about your substrate in your grow-outs? I suspect substrate is part of the equation allowing people to remove froglets early with success...

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Re: Pumilio offspring - when to pull / seperate ?

Postby RichFrye » Tue Jul 03, 2012 3:27 pm

Craig,
my grow out vivs are at least 7 years old. That means they have been getting doses of Ca for at least 7 years. As mentioned in an earlier post I made, I think many grow outs are new-ish...
Hiding spots , and tons of leaf litter, while making sure that there is also tons of micro-fauna ,which also tends to build up after seven years...healthy froglets.

Here's something nobody has mentioned, so I'm not sure if they have considered it. I know for a fact that there are tons of froglets which go unnoticed. If you pull a noticed froglet you will know that it is in a new environment from the parents' tank, and if it happens to die, it goes noticed too.
If you don't know there is a froglet hopping around a nice big parents' viv , and it dies, it goes unnoticed...those facts would seem to incorrectly skew a dispositional ration of pulled froglet deaths.
Last edited by RichFrye on Tue Jul 03, 2012 3:33 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Darts with parasites are analogous to mixed tanks, there are no known benefits to the frogs with either.


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Re: Pumilio offspring - when to pull / seperate ?

Postby thedude » Tue Jul 03, 2012 3:31 pm

There has been talk before that you should leave froglets in the tank for long enough that they witniss courting behaviour and egg feeding by the parents. Supposedly this helps them down the road when they are adults, and they get breeding down quicker. No clue if it's true, since frogs live mostly off instinct, but who knows.

I keep all my pumilio in 26 gallon tanks and pulling too early definitely results in a higher mortality rate for me. I've left 5 Blue Jean froglets in the parent tank before with no problems. I usually pull at 4 months.
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Re: Pumilio offspring - when to pull / seperate ?

Postby RichFrye » Tue Jul 03, 2012 3:40 pm

thedude wrote:There has been talk before that you should leave froglets in the tank for long enough that they witniss courting behaviour and egg feeding by the parents. Supposedly this helps them down the road when they are adults, and they get breeding down quicker. No clue if it's true, since frogs live mostly off instinct, but who knows.
...



But, studies have shown this not to be the fact. Put one healthy CB male in with one healthy CB female and you get breeding. I never witness issues with 1:1 . I do witness issues with 2:1 , 3:1 ...be thye full grown males or unsexable to us.
And, your statement has nothing to due with froglet mortality (I believe the main issue, since breeding has not yet been mentioned here) , just 'down the road breeding'.
Darts with parasites are analogous to mixed tanks, there are no known benefits to the frogs with either.


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Re: Pumilio offspring - when to pull / seperate ?

Postby RichFrye » Tue Jul 03, 2012 3:43 pm

RichFrye wrote:Craig,
my grow out vivs are at least 7 years old. That means they have been getting doses of Ca for at least 7 years. As mentioned in an earlier post I made, I think many grow outs are new-ish...
Hiding spots , and tons of leaf litter, while making sure that there is also tons of micro-fauna ,which also tends to build up after seven years...healthy froglets.

Here's something nobody has mentioned, so I'm not sure if they have considered it. I know for a fact that there are tons of froglets which go unnoticed. If you pull a noticed froglet you will know that it is in a new environment from the parents' tank, and if it happens to die, it goes noticed too.
If you don't know there is a froglet hopping around a nice big parents' viv , and it dies, it goes unnoticed...those facts would seem to incorrectly skew a dispositional ratio of pulled froglet deaths.
Darts with parasites are analogous to mixed tanks, there are no known benefits to the frogs with either.


If tone is more important to you than content, you are at the wrong place.

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Re: Pumilio offspring - when to pull / seperate ?

Postby cbreon » Tue Jul 03, 2012 3:48 pm

RichFrye wrote:Craig,
my grow out vivs are at least 7 years old. That means they have been getting doses of Ca for at least 7 years. As mentioned in an earlier post I made, I think many grow outs are new-ish...
Hiding spots , and tons of leaf litter, while making sure that there is also tons of micro-fauna ,which also tends to build up after seven years...healthy froglets.

Here's something nobody has mentioned, so I'm not sure if they have considered it. I know for a fact that there are tons of froglets which go unnoticed. If you pull a noticed froglet you will know that it is in a new environment from the parents' tank, and if it happens to die, it goes noticed too.
If you don't know there is a froglet hopping around a nice big parents' viv , and it dies, it goes unnoticed...those facts would seem to incorrectly skew a dispositional ration of pulled froglet deaths.


Rich, I have wondered the same thing, particularly when I have 5+ froglets morph out together, rarely do they all make it...

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Re: Pumilio offspring - when to pull / seperate ?

Postby BcsTx » Tue Jul 03, 2012 6:20 pm

I pull my pum froglets when they morph as well, I have not had any deaths.
I have been using 10-15 g grow outs with some spaghnum moss on the bottom and lots of leaf litter on the top plus some pothos. I feed them every other day wingless ffy's and on the days I am not feeding ffy's I put springs in.
Most of my pum vivs are heavily planted so I pull them when when I see them (IME when young they are easier to catch than when they get older). Plus I like knowing they get the springs and ffy's they need without the adults.
I also keep their tanks on the bottom of my rack without lights, they only get ambient lighting.
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Re: Pumilio offspring - when to pull / seperate ?

Postby JL-Exotics » Tue Jul 03, 2012 10:13 pm

RichFrye wrote:....
my grow out vivs are at least 7 years old. That means they have been getting doses of Ca for at least 7 years.....


Can you expand on that Rich? How are you dosing your grow out vivs with Calcium?
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Re: Pumilio offspring - when to pull / seperate ?

Postby RichFrye » Tue Jul 03, 2012 10:34 pm

JL-Exotics wrote:
RichFrye wrote:....
my grow out vivs are at least 7 years old. That means they have been getting doses of Ca for at least 7 years.....


Can you expand on that Rich? How are you dosing your grow out vivs with Calcium?



All of the Ca dust which does not get absorbed by pums gets absorbed by the vivs.
Darts with parasites are analogous to mixed tanks, there are no known benefits to the frogs with either.


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Re: Pumilio offspring - when to pull / seperate ?

Postby cbreon » Tue Jul 03, 2012 10:35 pm

JL-Exotics wrote:
RichFrye wrote:....
my grow out vivs are at least 7 years old. That means they have been getting doses of Ca for at least 7 years.....


Can you expand on that Rich? How are you dosing your grow out vivs with Calcium?


They have been getting calcium via years worth of feedings...

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Re: Pumilio offspring - when to pull / seperate ?

Postby Philsuma » Mon Apr 28, 2014 1:36 pm

It's best to not transfer pumilio froglets to other hobbyists until they are at least 4 months OOW. We are seeing a lot of transfer and god forbid, shipping of pumilio under 4 months and I think we need to start pushing 'best practice' here with this one particular issue.

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Re: Pumilio offspring - when to pull / seperate ?

Postby Hayden » Thu May 22, 2014 8:55 am

I know this is an older thread, but I've been pondering this same question for months now. I bought a breeding pair of Rio Teribe Pumilio 4 months ago or so. They guy I bought them from knew there were 2 froglets in the tank, but when he was breaking his tank down to pull the adults for me ended up finding 6 froglets of various sizes in the tank instead. So I ended up getting 8 Pumilio for the price of 2!!! I have read conflicting information so I decided to leave a few in the tank with parents and pull a few. From my very limited experience, it does appear the froglets I have pulled are growing faster. I've been contemplating pulling the remaining froglets, and after reading this thread I think I will. Not trying to get off topic here, but I've also wondered if having more froglets in the tank slows down reproduction at all? Meaning will the adults notice the froglets and slow down production?

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Re: Pumilio offspring - when to pull / seperate ?

Postby RichFrye » Thu May 22, 2014 4:38 pm

Hayden wrote:I know this is an older thread, but I've been pondering this same question for months now. I bought a breeding pair of Rio Teribe Pumilio 4 months ago or so. They guy I bought them from knew there were 2 froglets in the tank, but when he was breaking his tank down to pull the adults for me ended up finding 6 froglets of various sizes in the tank instead. So I ended up getting 8 Pumilio for the price of 2!!! I have read conflicting information so I decided to leave a few in the tank with parents and pull a few. From my very limited experience, it does appear the froglets I have pulled are growing faster. I've been contemplating pulling the remaining froglets, and after reading this thread I think I will. Not trying to get off topic here, but I've also wondered if having more froglets in the tank slows down reproduction at all? Meaning will the adults notice the froglets and slow down production?

Male adult pums will know way before we can sex a froglet, yes froglet, that the froglet is a male.
Male pums can and will kill competition...
I have yet to hear or read proof of any benefit to leaving froglets in-viv, all things equal.
Darts with parasites are analogous to mixed tanks, there are no known benefits to the frogs with either.


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Re: Pumilio offspring - when to pull / seperate ?

Postby Hayden » Thu May 22, 2014 8:23 pm

I actually pulled the remaining froglets and put them in growouts after I got home from work this evening. Any answer as to whether parents slow production when there are multiple froglets in the tank?

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Re: Pumilio offspring - when to pull / seperate ?

Postby RichFrye » Thu May 22, 2014 10:50 pm

Hayden wrote:I actually pulled the remaining froglets and put them in growouts after I got home from work this evening. Any answer as to whether parents slow production when there are multiple froglets in the tank?

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I can't say for sure, because if don't let mine stay in viv. But I would be befuddled to think a bunch of little ones hopping around adds to breeding success...
Darts with parasites are analogous to mixed tanks, there are no known benefits to the frogs with either.


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Re: Pumilio offspring - when to pull / seperate ?

Postby Hayden » Fri May 23, 2014 4:32 am

One thing for sure, my little guys like to hang out in broms, so they're definitely taking up valuable egg deposit sites.

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