'Paru' Oophaga sylvatica - PICS !

Oophaga arborea
Oophaga granulifera
Oophaga histrionica
Oophaga lehmanni
Oophaga occultator
Oophaga pumilio
Oophaga speciosa
Oophaga sylvatica
Oophaga vicentei
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Re: 'Paru' sylvatica - PICS !

Postby thedude » Sun Jun 03, 2012 1:41 am

Way to go Jake, you have way more patience than me to actually go through it all and break up the quotes.

Anyway back on topic of the actual frogs.

Anyone have any updates on theirs?

It's looking like I have a 2.1 going off body shape and size. Plus, the 2 smaller ones (males probably) have made possible territories and were fighting earlier during feeding time. This is the first time I've seen any fighting and it was only with food present. No signs of stress and everyone has been growing quite well.

Here are a few new pictures.

This was the one getting beat up (2nd biggest actually)
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By this one (the smallest)
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And the hopeful female, which is giant by comparison.
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Re: 'Paru' sylvatica - PICS !

Postby ChrisK » Sun Jun 03, 2012 2:07 am

Any calling? If they're the same age and the third is HUGE compared to the others, I would bet money it's female.

Although females can also be male-sized, but I personally never saw the reverse.

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Re: 'Paru' sylvatica - PICS !

Postby thedude » Sun Jun 03, 2012 3:10 am

No calling yet. I was hopeful and watched them for an hour while they were eating and fighting but nothing. I'll have to watch for a while tomorrow when I mist.

Not sure on age really. That one was a lot bigger than the other 2 when I got them.
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Re: 'Paru' sylvatica - PICS !

Postby Philsuma » Sun Jun 03, 2012 11:04 am

Gorgeous animals Adam, thanks for posting. This is a good thread IMO. From discussion - provokes thought and increased knowledge (I think Yoda said that). I'd much rather have some pointed discourse rather than just "Sweet Frogs"..."Let's see more pics!"

There is no "Right and Wrong" here. Mark P. (and by proxy, his overseas projects) has continued to advance the hobby, setting the 'bar" higher, and all the while doing so with conservation in mind. But this doesn't mean we should stop discussing.

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Re: 'Paru' sylvatica - PICS !

Postby thedude » Sun Jun 03, 2012 2:22 pm

Thanks Phil.

If Yoda had said it, it would be "Provokes thought, and increases knowledge, discussion does" :D
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Re: 'Paru' sylvatica - PICS !

Postby thedude » Sun Jun 03, 2012 11:33 pm

Well I misted heavily tonight and they started fighting again. This could be because it stirred up what was left of the flies however.

I played a couple clips of sylvatica calling for a bit. The orange "male" just fled and hid, the smaller "male" went ape shit and ran all over the tank looking for the source, and the "female" showed some interest for about 20 seconds. No calling from either "male" though, so they must still be a bit young.
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Re: 'Paru' Oophaga sylvatica - PICS !

Postby RichFrye » Mon Jun 04, 2012 6:11 pm

I hope we can all agree that the main issue here is how to manage the breeding of these frogs.
I have yet to read once, in any literature from anyone involved in the project that all of these frogs coming in are from one contiguous breeding population.
In fact, I have read (below) that there is more or less variation in different POPULATIONS {SIC}. Populations. How do you mix all with any when there is more or less variation in different populations?
I have also yet to read one word from the SA breeders which tells us how these frogs should be bred. Perplexing {sic} indeed.
There is not one word about being able to find each phenotype in every area...with all populations . Populations. Plural. So, with no knowledge of what really breeds with what...how do you manage?
I HAVE read that it is possible these frogs are the result of either hybridization (reluctant to interpret or not, still pointed out as possible) human manipulation, or other factors UNNATURAL. . They don't know what causes these variations...
in the populations mentioned. So, genetic testing is needed .

I have read of enriched quadrants. But I have no idea how augmented, nor what the process was behind the enriching for purposes of breeding . It's not been offered up.

So, what I take from the below is this.
Much as the mainland population (not contiguous breeding population, but population, a word used by the representatives of the project.) of Panama pumilio, there is variation and polymorphism.
There has been MORE and LESS variations, in different populations within the reserve.
It is impossible to say that any frog should or can be properly managed by breeding it to any other from within the HUGE reserve...without the testing mentioned. I await the results and would speculate upon scientific test work we will find several different breeding populations within the reserve, quite possibly due to unnatural human manipulation , augmentation, or enrichment.
After testing we should have a great idea of what is really going on.
Anybody waiting for test results? Or are we still mixing phenotypes due to wording such as population alone?
Mainland population of Panama pums. One truly polymorphic population...NOT , not one contiguous breeding population to be bred together.



"Insight into the natural variation of the "Paru" Oophaga sylvatica - By Luis A. Coloma.


by Understory Enterprises Inc. on Tuesday, May 8, 2012 at 4:58pm



Individuals of the the Paru morph of Oophaga sylvatica (= Dendrobates sylvaticus) exported by Wikiri come from the Otokiki reserve. Otokiki reserve is located at the Alto Tambo region at an altiude of about 600-700 meters above sea level. Amount of color pattern variation within this Otokiki population, which occurs naturally, is perplexing.


At Otokiki, similar large variation in colors and patterns is seen in 3 enriched closed quadrats as well as in one enriched open quadrat, and in the control (not enriched) quadrat.


We have documented a great amount of intrapopulation variation towards the east of Alto Tambo, at Guadual (near Lita, Esmeraldas province), as well. Less color pattern variation is seen in lowland POPULATIONS at Durango and Playón de San Francisco in Esmeraldas province, which depict more uniform colors.


How to interpret this variation and which are its causes?


Underlying causes of this intrapopulation variation are largely unknown and currently are a matter of speculation. For now, I am reluctant to interpret this variation as the result of hybridization, a phenomenon that can occur between species as a result of primary or secondary contact (after a period of isolation). Underlying factors behind the observed variation probably are in the evolutionary history of this population (somehow the historical human intervention in the area could have played a role as well) (not Wikiri manipulation).


Understanding the mechanisms that promote intra population divergence (such as the one observed at Otokiki reserve) and interpopulation divergence (such as the one among popualtions of O. sylvatica in the pacific lowlands of Ecuador and Colombia), and ultimately speciation is one of the most challenging and intriguing tasks in evolutionary biology. Geographical barriers, ecological gradients, genetic drift, and sexual selection are the main mechanisms (currently speculative for O. sylvatica populations, as I mentioned before) invoked to explain these processes, which are shaping the variation observed.


Centro Jambatu is very interested in explaining the evolution of coloration, morphology and behavior within and among populations of Oophaga sylvatica. We have begun a study in that sense in cooperation with a researcher at Texas, who is currently moving to Harvard University. At this time we are in the planning process and hopefully we will be doing field, molecular, and experimental work, beginning next year. The Otokiki population will be critical because of its huge coloration variability.


For a better understanding of this variation and its evolution, we need to conduct fine-tuned studies including morphological descriptions in relation to behavior, geography, and molecular population genetic structure. Also, we need to conduct lab controlled experiments to see its results. We will need to set up crosses between color morphs in order to identify color specific SNPs (single nucleotide polymorphisms) and then examine the expression bias of parental alleles in the offspring. We will study behavioral issues and also we will address questions of color determination.

Finally, I think the people who love these frogs are very lucky to have Wikiri providing farm raised frogs from a population that depicts such a great intrapopulation variation, which include dull and bright colored individuals, spotted and non-spotted frogs, orange, red, yellow and brown colors. Hopefully this variation can be preserved at the site (Otokiki). Backup populations under care of hobbyists are also important as an ex situ tool helping integrative conservation strategies. Elicio just came back from Otokiki and told us that the piece of jungle (about 140 acres) adjacent to the reserve has begun to be destroyed.


Luis A. Coloma

Centro Jambatu de Investigación y Conservación de Anfibios

Fundación Otonga"
Darts with parasites are analogous to mixed tanks, there are no known benefits to the frogs with either.


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Re: 'Paru' Oophaga sylvatica - PICS !

Postby Jeremy Huff » Mon Jun 04, 2012 6:31 pm

I took the term "enriched" to mean that additional deposition sites (bromeliads and artificial) were added, NOT that frogs were added.

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Re: 'Paru' Oophaga sylvatica - PICS !

Postby RichFrye » Mon Jun 04, 2012 6:46 pm

Jeremy Huff wrote:I took the term "enriched" to mean that additional deposition sites (bromeliads and artificial) were added, NOT that frogs were added.


That's possible. Why the fences?
Darts with parasites are analogous to mixed tanks, there are no known benefits to the frogs with either.


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Re: 'Paru' sylvatica - PICS !

Postby RichFrye » Mon Jun 04, 2012 6:58 pm

MPepper wrote:Rich,


..."Paru" is a name given to these Otokiki frogs by WIKIRI. I don't know that anyone has yet to define the range of these "Paru" enough to determine whether pockets are breeding within this range or not, and again the term range is highly subjective itself.
... I do not know which frogs were moved from one side of the fence or another to complete the desired breeding population to comply with the management proposal upon which permits were granted.
Darts with parasites are analogous to mixed tanks, there are no known benefits to the frogs with either.


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Re: 'Paru' Oophaga sylvatica - PICS !

Postby Jeremy Huff » Mon Jun 04, 2012 6:58 pm

RichFrye wrote:
Jeremy Huff wrote:I took the term "enriched" to mean that additional deposition sites (bromeliads and artificial) were added, NOT that frogs were added.


That's possible. Why the fences?



To keep Germans out!

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Re: 'Paru' Oophaga sylvatica - PICS !

Postby RichFrye » Mon Jun 04, 2012 7:03 pm

Jeremy Huff wrote:
RichFrye wrote:
Jeremy Huff wrote:I took the term "enriched" to mean that additional deposition sites (bromeliads and artificial) were added, NOT that frogs were added.


That's possible. Why the fences?


To keep Germans out!


I'd not bet on that, or that working. But, either way, read my last post...human manipulation (one side of the fence or not) is augmenting.
Darts with parasites are analogous to mixed tanks, there are no known benefits to the frogs with either.


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Re: 'Paru' Oophaga sylvatica - PICS !

Postby thedude » Mon Jun 04, 2012 7:05 pm

RichFrye wrote:I have read of enriched quadrants. But I have no idea how augmented, nor what the process was behind the enriching for purposes of breeding . It's not been offered up.



Really? You haven't been paying much attention to what they, or Mark, have said then.

The point of the fences is to keep the frogs in that area. Hence frog farm :roll:

Rich, at this point I think you should probably make a new thread for your paranoia discussion about these frogs. I'd rather this thread be a place for people to post pictures and discuss how they are doing with their Paru.
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Re: 'Paru' Oophaga sylvatica - PICS !

Postby Philsuma » Mon Jun 04, 2012 7:12 pm

^^ Agreed.

Let keep THIS thread on target with Pics -as the OP had intended and entitled it.

HERE is the thread where we can share opinions on this species:

viewtopic.php?f=52&t=6232&p=37469#p37469

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Re: 'Paru' Oophaga sylvatica - PICS !

Postby RichFrye » Mon Jun 04, 2012 7:16 pm

thedude wrote:
RichFrye wrote:I have read of enriched quadrants. But I have no idea how augmented, nor what the process was behind the enriching for purposes of breeding . It's not been offered up.



Really? You haven't been paying much attention to what they, or Mark, have said then.

The point of the fences is to keep the frogs in that area. Hence frog farm :roll:

Rich, at this point I think you should probably make a new thread for your paranoia discussion about these frogs. I'd rather this thread be a place for people to post pictures and discuss how they are doing with their Paru.



Really, must be hellaawesome fences Adam. What kind of fences keep these little suckers in place? But, who cares really, it's human manipulation, and I want to know what it was based on. YOU SHOULD ALSO.
Besides your frustration (which I understand...) care to comment on my points and quotes?
Mark does not know the "range" and does not know if ANYONE does. Quoted.
Luis has stated there are "populations" , plural, which show more or less variation. Quoted.
How did you guys get to thinking this was one contiguous population, when nobody involved with the project has stated that?
If people want to put their heads in the sand and not at least think about why this may be a little "perplexing" [sic]... , and deserving of testing, you don't deserve to work with these beauties , because you don't know how to or want to manage them properly.
Darts with parasites are analogous to mixed tanks, there are no known benefits to the frogs with either.


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Re: 'Paru' Oophaga sylvatica - PICS !

Postby RichFrye » Mon Jun 04, 2012 7:17 pm

Philsuma wrote:^^ Agreed.

Let keep THIS thread on target with Pics -as the OP had intended and entitled it.

HERE is the thread where we can share opinions on this species:

http://www.dartden.com/viewtopic.php?f= ... 469#p37469

Please feel free to move whatever. But there's plenty of info here which may not flow if moved.
I've made my points.
Darts with parasites are analogous to mixed tanks, there are no known benefits to the frogs with either.


If tone is more important to you than content, you are at the wrong place.

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Re: 'Paru' Oophaga sylvatica - PICS !

Postby thedude » Mon Jun 04, 2012 7:36 pm

All of the phenotypes that were imported are from the same area of land and interbreed together at the reserve. They don't know the entire range of the population, in what way does that mean they don't know all these frogs are from the same population?

The human manipulation you are so against is the fences (whats your problem there?) and enrichment by adding bromeliads so they can maximize breeding. What is your problem with that? At no point did they say they moved frogs from other populations to this one.

I don't deserve to keep these frogs because I'm taking the word of herpetologists who have been working directly with these frogs for 4 years? Really? That kind of pisses me off considering how hard I've worked to get here. Not everyone can have the majority of their frogs handed to them ;) Rich, you are a smart guy with a lot of knowledge about breeding obligates, so it is a real shame that you are acting like this with these frogs. Considering you don't have a biology background or anything, who do you think we should be listening to at this point?

To me, it seems as though you are just upset that someone other than you has brought in site specific obligates. Again, it's a real shame.
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Re: 'Paru' Oophaga sylvatica - PICS !

Postby Philsuma » Mon Jun 04, 2012 7:44 pm

...well...there goes the 'pics only" idea.....

Adam, I totally support your theories and hopes on this import species, I honestly do. I think Mark P. has raised the bar and done this hobby a HUGE benefit. I support him and his ongoing efforts 100%. He is at the head of the pack - far head of any other importer.

That said....we would be re-miss if we just 'closed the door' on everything and said 'enjoy the frogs and no need to pipe up". I may not agree with 'human manipulation' or expansion, ect....whatever the terms, but you have to admit, there has not been a TON of information about this entire import. Couple that with the sudden influx of 'other' supposedly EU animals and yes....I think the hobby can stand a little more requesting of info and sharing of opinion.

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Re: 'Paru' Oophaga sylvatica - PICS !

Postby RichFrye » Mon Jun 04, 2012 7:51 pm

thedude wrote:All of the phenotypes that were imported are from the same area of land and interbreed together at the reserve. They don't know the entire range of the population, in what way does that mean they don't know all these frogs are from the same population?

You let me know when you really want to go back to this being a picture thread.

Please cite exactly where they are all supposedly from the same area, because if you know anything about the frogs YOU actually have, you know this is wrong. But, don't trust me, please post the words from the project people. Please.

thedude wrote:The human manipulation you are so against is the fences (whats your problem there?) and enrichment by adding bromeliads so they can maximize breeding. What is your problem with that? At no point did they say they moved frogs from other populations to this one.[/quote}
Now who's not paying attention.
Moved from one side of a fence to another. Did you read Mark's quote? I quoted it again, so it's been posted twice now.
thedude wrote:
I don't deserve to keep these frogs because I'm taking the word of herpetologists who have been working directly with these frogs for 4 years? Really? That kind of pisses me off considering how hard I've worked to get here. Not everyone can have the majority of their frogs handed to them ;) Rich, you are a smart guy with a lot of knowledge about breeding obligates, so it is a real shame that you are acting like this with these frogs. Considering you don't have a biology background or anything, who do you think we should be listening to at this point?

To me, it seems as though you are just upset that someone other than you has brought in site specific obligates. Again, it's a real shame.


Please, instead of crying about how bad I am, address my points. You need to learn a lot more about this situation.
Or do I need to break this down in even more simple terms?

Mark says the areas are not mapped out and nobody knows what's what for sure. In fac t , he states the possiblity of unique islands in the preserve. Get what this means?
Luis agrees and states testing is needed.
Frogs were moved (stated, quoted, multiple times) and I am very curious how they decided how many of what type needed to be placed in pens...when nobody knows all the populations, and the multiple populations vary.

Please don't boohoo me and attempt to beat me up. Address this in a logical manner and don't put words in Mark or Luis' or anyone's mouths. It does not work out well.
Darts with parasites are analogous to mixed tanks, there are no known benefits to the frogs with either.


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Re: 'Paru' Oophaga sylvatica - PICS !

Postby Philsuma » Mon Jun 04, 2012 8:06 pm

lets keep it civil here, please.

Mark P. was on DD earlier today and I'm sure he's not in the best of moods after hearing about all the same species "EU" imports hitting the U.S lately. He's probably busy and he may not like to 'engage' with the interweb crowd and I don't hold that against him whatsoever.


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