What's with all the Oophaga sylvatica suddenly?

Oophaga arborea
Oophaga granulifera
Oophaga histrionica
Oophaga lehmanni
Oophaga occultator
Oophaga pumilio
Oophaga speciosa
Oophaga sylvatica
Oophaga vicentei
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JimO
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What's with all the Oophaga sylvatica suddenly?

Postby JimO » Thu May 31, 2012 11:29 am

I am aware of at least three Oophaga sylvatica morphs being offered for sale, not including the Paru from UE. It is an amazing coincidence that all these frogs would suddenly be advertised after the first Paru were shipped by UE.

Their origin is unclear. Some state that they are European imports and others say that they were imported directly from Ecuador from research or education institutions.

I would love to have some, but I thought the only legal imports were those offered by UE. Sadly, given the pricing and the bright colors of these new morphs, it might kill the demand for Paru and greatly affect UE.

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Re: What's with all the Sylvatica suddenly?

Postby JimO » Thu May 31, 2012 12:08 pm

I might add that the frogs I've seen offerred are sexed adults. I would expect that European imports would include juveniles if they were CB in Europe.

Call me naive, but I don't understand why this is suddenly okay. I know a few experienced breeders have had Sylvatica from Europe all along, with the appropriate import permits, but I was under the impression that those were predominantly CB in Europe.

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Re: What's with all the Sylvatica suddenly?

Postby wohlerswi » Thu May 31, 2012 12:14 pm

I was wondering the same thing Jim. I would be interested in them if someone would show cites documentation proving they are legally imported. After that of coarse we would have to try and trace them back to when the Europeans got a hold of the line (if they are in fact from Europe). Im not sure they can legally be imported directly from Ecuador but Im not familiar with their exportation guidelines. I would like to hear someone chime in that is familiar with it. Until then everyone support UE and Marks hard, legit work. The price on them is also what makes me feel sketchy about them. As rare as they are, thats not a far off price for some of the rarer pumilio, and even cheaper than I have seen some grannies listed for. I dont know, but it seems like there are plenty of guys with deep pockets that would have purchased these behind the scenes. It is almost just as fishy that they actually made it to the classifieds. Anyone?
Will

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Re: What's with all the Sylvatica suddenly?

Postby JJuchems » Thu May 31, 2012 12:55 pm

I am under the understanding an import occurred with research permits and the animals have been released to a few individuals now that the work has been completed. I just saw pictures a few weeks back of them from the sources of this information. They looked good.
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Re: What's with all the Sylvatica suddenly?

Postby Ghostvivs » Thu May 31, 2012 2:42 pm

He had them at frog day... me and him don't see eye to eye so I didn't even bother to look at them.
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Re: What's with all the Sylvatica suddenly?

Postby Philsuma » Thu May 31, 2012 3:19 pm

To start with, I don't like the $500.00 per animal pricing that Understory applied to their Sylvatica import.I feel that price point is a little too high and makes smuggling similar animals too attractive.

With regards to full grown and sexed pairs coming from the E.U - specifically Germany....of course I'm more than a little suspicious. Shades of 50 adult blue jeans pumilio back in 2009-10.

I personally, would like to see paperwork on all of these and similar EU imports. I think the Dutch are trying to make an accompanying Breeder affidavit be attached to all animals - proving they are captive born or 'released' research animals.

Research animals that are 'released' for commercial purposes....uhhhh...ummmm...?

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Re: What's with all the Sylvatica suddenly?

Postby JJuchems » Thu May 31, 2012 4:15 pm

Philsuma wrote:To start with, I don't like the $500.00 per animal pricing that Understory applied to their Sylvatica import.I feel that price point is a little too high and makes smuggling similar animals too attractive.


They are a rare frog in any collection, period. Wikiri project puts 100% of the profits into conservation and in situ project they have in places. This project is making several species available legally. So I consider it similar to "fair share" products. You are going to pay more, but provide a better way of supply a product. In addition you are paying import and export from Ecuador, to Canada, and then to the USA.

Philsuma wrote:I personally, would like to see paperwork on all of these and similar EU imports. I think the Dutch are trying to make an accompanying Breeder affidavit be attached to all animals - proving they are captive born or 'released' research animals.


Good luck...

Philsuma wrote:Research animals that are 'released' for commercial purposes....uhhhh...ummmm...?


Is this not how rich obtained part of his collection? They were released and now the person has intentions of breeding and selling offspring.
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Re: What's with all the Sylvatica suddenly?

Postby brotherly monkey » Thu May 31, 2012 4:33 pm

JJuchems wrote:
Philsuma wrote:To start with, I don't like the $500.00 per animal pricing that Understory applied to their Sylvatica import.I feel that price point is a little too high and makes smuggling similar animals too attractive.


They are a rare frog in any collection, period. Wikiri project puts 100% of the profits into conservation and in situ project they have in places. This project is making several species available legally. So I consider it similar to "fair share" products. You are going to pay more, but provide a better way of supply a product. In addition you are paying import and export from Ecuador, to Canada, and then to the USA.


It's really hard to argue against this, especially when considering people are always free not to buy their frogs

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Re: What's with all the Sylvatica suddenly?

Postby JJuchems » Thu May 31, 2012 4:42 pm

brotherly monkey wrote:
JJuchems wrote:
Philsuma wrote:To start with, I don't like the $500.00 per animal pricing that Understory applied to their Sylvatica import.I feel that price point is a little too high and makes smuggling similar animals too attractive.


They are a rare frog in any collection, period. Wikiri project puts 100% of the profits into conservation and in situ project they have in places. This project is making several species available legally. So I consider it similar to "fair share" products. You are going to pay more, but provide a better way of supply a product. In addition you are paying import and export from Ecuador, to Canada, and then to the USA.


It's really hard to argue against this, especially when considering people are always free not to buy their frogs


And also do not forget Understory has stopped taking names, as the "demand has already far exceeded the potential for production in Ecuador."
Later and Happy Frogging,
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Re: What's with all the Sylvatica suddenly?

Postby Ghostvivs » Thu May 31, 2012 4:56 pm

Their claimed to be European imports by the seller. I highly doubt they were studied abroad, then shipped over here once the study was complete ... that just doesn't sound right.
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Re: What's with all the Sylvatica suddenly?

Postby Philsuma » Thu May 31, 2012 4:58 pm

JJuchems wrote:
Philsuma wrote:To start with, I don't like the $500.00 per animal pricing that Understory applied to their Sylvatica import.I feel that price point is a little too high and makes smuggling similar animals too attractive.


They are a rare frog in any collection, period. Wikiri project puts 100% of the profits into conservation and in situ project they have in places. This project is making several species available legally. So I consider it similar to "fair share" products. You are going to pay more, but provide a better way of supply a product. In addition you are paying import and export from Ecuador, to Canada, and then to the USA.

On paper that's certainly the goal and the light at the end of the tunnel - closer to true conservation, but without complete information on all the slices of the final payment pie and where each and every dollar and expense goes..we have NO idea of the costs and overhead involved here. I doubt you have any firm idea on figures here....so we are just left kinda guessing at the end.

Philsuma wrote:I personally, would like to see paperwork on all of these and similar EU imports. I think the Dutch are trying to make an accompanying Breeder affidavit be attached to all animals - proving they are captive born or 'released' research animals.


Good luck...

Well..we can at least take a stance on the subject. Would YOU buy frogs from the "EU" without paperwork or idea where exactly they were 'obtained'. As evidenced by my Jack the Ripper poll....I'm guessing most people would.

Philsuma wrote:Research animals that are 'released' for commercial purposes....uhhhh...ummmm...?


Is this not how rich obtained part of his collection? They were released and now the person has intentions of breeding and selling offspring.


I honestly don't know...why don't you start a thread and ask him ?

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Re: What's with all the Sylvatica suddenly?

Postby Philsuma » Thu May 31, 2012 5:04 pm

brotherly monkey wrote:
JJuchems wrote:
Philsuma wrote:To start with, I don't like the $500.00 per animal pricing that Understory applied to their Sylvatica import.I feel that price point is a little too high and makes smuggling similar animals too attractive.


They are a rare frog in any collection, period. Wikiri project puts 100% of the profits into conservation and in situ project they have in places. This project is making several species available legally. So I consider it similar to "fair share" products. You are going to pay more, but provide a better way of supply a product. In addition you are paying import and export from Ecuador, to Canada, and then to the USA.


It's really hard to argue against this, especially when considering people are always free not to buy their frogs


I see what you are saying, but WE are all part of the Dart Frog Hobby community. We can't force market pricing -not that it would be illegal as price fixing in our hobby niche would be impossible, but we can still voice our opinions.

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Re: What's with all the Sylvatica suddenly?

Postby JimO » Thu May 31, 2012 5:17 pm

First, I didn't mean to imply that anyone is doing anything illegal or unethical. I don't know any details and I don't have a working understanding of the applicable regulations to make a judgment. But, I'll be very honest, one of the Sylvatica morphs currently offered at DB is essentially my dream frog and I would gladly pay the $500 per frog if I had the money at the moment, but I would want to make sure that these aren't simply, to put it bluntly, smuggled frogs being laundered through Europe. Also, the timing with the Paru import is very suspicious. It's as though someone was waiting for the first Paru to arrive in the U.S. to bring these in. It's also odd that the prices are exactly the same as the Paru.

I don't want to stir up trouble. I just want to understand so I can do the right thing in the future. I certainly don't want a dime of my money supporting some German smuggler. I'd get out of the hobby first.

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Re: What's with all the Sylvatica suddenly?

Postby JJuchems » Thu May 31, 2012 5:22 pm

JimO wrote:First, I didn't mean to imply that anyone is doing anything illegal or unethical.


Jim you are not "stirring the pot." They are a rare frog and in the last month or so I have seen more for sale than I have seen in over 10 years in the hobby.
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Re: What's with all the Sylvatica suddenly?

Postby JJuchems » Thu May 31, 2012 5:25 pm

Philsuma wrote:I see what you are saying, but WE are all part of the Dart Frog Hobby community. We can't force market pricing -not that it would be illegal as price fixing in our hobby niche would be impossible, but we can still voice our opinions.


Market dictates the price. Your collection is only worth what someone is willing to pay for it. People are lining up at $500 a pop, so the market/hobby is looking favorably at the Wikiri Project O. sylvatica.
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Re: What's with all the Sylvatica suddenly?

Postby Philsuma » Thu May 31, 2012 5:29 pm

^^^ Agree. And given the choice between a U.E Sylvie and a "E.U" Sylvie.....I'm going Canadian.

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Re: What's with all the Sylvatica suddenly?

Postby RichFrye » Thu May 31, 2012 5:32 pm

Boy, with all these new obligates coming in , being bought and sold, we should be seeing CB offspring for sale in no time. :roll:
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Re: What's with all the Sylvatica suddenly?

Postby Philsuma » Thu May 31, 2012 5:33 pm

yeah considering they are all sub-adults to adults.

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Re: What's with all the Sylvatica suddenly?

Postby thedude » Thu May 31, 2012 8:26 pm

If they are being offered from a research project, they will have papers with them.

As far as I know, the only frogs coming out of Ecuador now, and in the past 10 years, are true farm raised frogs from Wikiri, imported through UE. If these frogs don't match any of that, where do you guys think they are really from?

I'm not saying the people selling them know it, but we should all be fully aware by now that rare obligates coming in as adults from other countries, especially in large numbers, are more than likely smuggled. Even the Paru that just came in aren't full grown. And when Mark got them, they were juvies.

As for the $500 per frog from UE, that is more than fair considering all the time invested in the research, farms, and bureaucracy of it. And then import, export, and cites permits/fees. Plus, they are healthy, been in captivity for a while, and have local data. I'm amazed they weren't more.

Hey Jim, I know it's tough not buying your most wanted frogs, but both Ecuador and Colombia are open now for these amazing frogs, Just give it time man :D
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Re: What's with all the Sylvatica suddenly?

Postby JJuchems » Thu May 31, 2012 8:45 pm

thedude wrote:If they are being offered from a research project, they will have papers with them.


They do, as that is what has been communicated to me.


thedude wrote:Hey Jim, I know it's tough not buying your most wanted frogs, but both Ecuador and Colombia are open now for these amazing frogs, Just give it time man :D


I was hoping items would be out now, however I have not see anything yet. I thought they both opened up in January. Am I mistaken?
Later and Happy Frogging,
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