Input on 'Paru' - pics

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Re: Input on 'Paru' - pics

Postby edwardsatc » Mon Sep 17, 2012 5:10 pm

If anyone would like a copy of the Summers article, PM me you email and I'll send the pdf.

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Re: Input on 'Paru' - pics

Postby RichFrye » Mon Sep 17, 2012 5:33 pm

No Donn, that is not the article I was refering to. But I've looked that one over too.
I'll dig further. As some of us know many of the papers are Pay Per View...but I'm sure given a bit of time I'll dig it out.

I ask again, what are your thoughts on the two frogs in question?


edwardsatc wrote:
RichFrye wrote:
Fair enough, how 'bout the paper by Summers I cite?
Everyone knows what he's found. Mix and get mud. Hardly mind blowing. What term comes to mind when viewing the two frogs I posted? Sharp and distinct? Or other-wise?


That paper merely makes a one line reference to other published research and contains no data as to mixing. The paper you probably meant to cite is:

K. Summers, T. W. Cronin, T. Kennedy (2004) Cross-Breeding of Distinct Color Morphs of the Strawberry Poison Frog (Dendrobates pumilio) from the Bocas del Toro Archipelago, Panama. Journal of Herpetology 38(1):1-8.

"Mix and get mud" is not exactly the conclusions they come to. As outlined in the abstract, Summers, et al. make it quite clear that "The offspring typically displayed a mixture of colors but always showed color pattern if one parent showed color pattern. This suggests that color pattern is under single locus control with dominance, whereas coloration may be under polygenic control, or may represent a single locus system with incomplete dominance."

While color may be "muddied", pattern was representative of a patterned parent. Not quite as black and white as "mix and get mud".
Darts with parasites are analogous to mixed tanks, there are no known benefits to the frogs with either.


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Re: Input on 'Paru' - pics

Postby RichFrye » Mon Sep 17, 2012 5:38 pm

I think the used terms were "dull and intermediate" in the first paper I cited. Dull and intermediate are pretty much exactly what I see.
While the monosyllabic work I would use is mud.
Darts with parasites are analogous to mixed tanks, there are no known benefits to the frogs with either.


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Re: Input on 'Paru' - pics

Postby Philsuma » Mon Sep 17, 2012 6:07 pm

this paper ?

Molecular Ecology (2007) doi: 10.1111/j.1365-294X.2007.03479.x
© 2007 The Authors
Journal compilation © 2007 Blackwell Publishing Ltd

Blackwell Publishing Ltd Non-gradual variation in colour morphs of the strawberry
poison frog Dendrobates pumilio: genetic and geographical
isolation suggest a role for selection in maintaining
polymorphism


ANDREAS RUDH,* B JÖRN ROGELL† and JACOB HÖGLUND†
*Animal Ecology, Department of Ecology and Evolution/EBC, Uppsala University, Norbyvägen 18D, SE-752 36, Uppsala, Sweden,
†Population Biology and Conservation Biology, Department of Ecology and Evolution/EBC, Uppsala University, Norbyvägen 18D,
SE-752 36, Uppsala, Sweden
Abstract
The relative roles that geographical isolation and selection play in driving population
divergence remain one of the central questions in evolutionary biology. We approached this
question by investigating genetic and morphological variation among populations of the
strawberry poison frog, Dendrobates pumilio, in the Bocas del Toro archipelago, Panama.
We found significant population genetic structure and isolation by distance based on
amplified fragment length polymorphism markers. Snout vent length (SVL), coloration
and the extent and size of dorsal black spots showed large variation among the studied populations.
Differences in SVL correlated with genetic distance, whereas black spot patterns
and other coloration parameters did not. Indeed, the latter characters were observed to be
dramatically different between contiguous populations located on the same island. These
results imply that neutral divergence among populations may account for the genetic
patterns based on amplified fragment length polymorphism markers and SVL. However,
selective pressures need to be invoked in order to explain the extraordinary variation in
spot size and coverage, and coloration. We discuss the possibility that the observed variation
in colour morphs is a consequence of a combination of local variation in both natural
selection on an aposematic signal towards visual predators and sexual selection generated
by colour morph-specific mate preferences.
Keywords: genetic diversity, morphological variation, neutral divergence, Poison dart frogs, selection,
speciation
Received 17 March 2007; revision received 6 June 2007; accepted 26 June 2007

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Re: Input on 'Paru' - pics

Postby RichFrye » Mon Sep 17, 2012 6:12 pm

This is the first paper I cited which called the product of hybrid mixing (mixing locales of different phenotypes)
"dull and intermediate", yes.
They, along with many other pums papers , constantly cite problems with hybrids.


Philsuma wrote:this paper ?

Molecular Ecology (2007) doi: 10.1111/j.1365-294X.2007.03479.x
© 2007 The Authors
Journal compilation © 2007 Blackwell Publishing Ltd

Blackwell Publishing Ltd Non-gradual variation in colour morphs of the strawberry
poison frog Dendrobates pumilio: genetic and geographical
isolation suggest a role for selection in maintaining
polymorphism


ANDREAS RUDH,* B JÖRN ROGELL† and JACOB HÖGLUND†
*Animal Ecology, Department of Ecology and Evolution/EBC, Uppsala University, Norbyvägen 18D, SE-752 36, Uppsala, Sweden,
†Population Biology and Conservation Biology, Department of Ecology and Evolution/EBC, Uppsala University, Norbyvägen 18D,
SE-752 36, Uppsala, Sweden
Abstract
The relative roles that geographical isolation and selection play in driving population
divergence remain one of the central questions in evolutionary biology. We approached this
question by investigating genetic and morphological variation among populations of the
strawberry poison frog, Dendrobates pumilio, in the Bocas del Toro archipelago, Panama.
We found significant population genetic structure and isolation by distance based on
amplified fragment length polymorphism markers. Snout vent length (SVL), coloration
and the extent and size of dorsal black spots showed large variation among the studied populations.
Differences in SVL correlated with genetic distance, whereas black spot patterns
and other coloration parameters did not. Indeed, the latter characters were observed to be
dramatically different between contiguous populations located on the same island. These
results imply that neutral divergence among populations may account for the genetic
patterns based on amplified fragment length polymorphism markers and SVL. However,
selective pressures need to be invoked in order to explain the extraordinary variation in
spot size and coverage, and coloration. We discuss the possibility that the observed variation
in colour morphs is a consequence of a combination of local variation in both natural
selection on an aposematic signal towards visual predators and sexual selection generated
by colour morph-specific mate preferences.
Keywords: genetic diversity, morphological variation, neutral divergence, Poison dart frogs, selection,
speciation
Received 17 March 2007; revision received 6 June 2007; accepted 26 June 2007
Darts with parasites are analogous to mixed tanks, there are no known benefits to the frogs with either.


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Input on 'Paru' - pics

Postby Tuckinrim8 » Mon Sep 17, 2012 6:14 pm

Rich, this is just my opinion but the two frogs you've posted do not look muddy to me. All of the Paru I have seen in person (7) have a varying degree of black to them. The two you've pictured just seem to have a much higher amount. How about giving us some information on the frogs you've pictured. Did these come in though understory's last shipment or are they offspring from the first?

I am keeping my group of three very different frogs together as that is how I received them from Mark and until the people who put all the work into bringing these animals in say differently, that's how they will stay.
They transported yesterday and I have a second developing clutch so I hope to be able to contribute a little more to the discussion once they start coming out if water. For reference here are the three I've got. The one that reminds me of your frogs is the light yellow female. The "lita" looking frog is also a female and the orange frog is male.

Chris
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Re: Input on 'Paru' - pics

Postby RichFrye » Mon Sep 17, 2012 6:23 pm

Tuckinrim8 wrote:Rich, this is just my opinion but the two frogs you've posted do not look muddy to me. All of the Paru I have seen in person (7) have a varying degree of black to them. The two you've pictured just seem to have a much higher amount. How about giving us some information on the frogs you've pictured. Did these come in though understory's last shipment or are they offspring from the first?

I am keeping my group of three very different frogs together as that is how I received them from Mark and until the people who put all the work into bringing these animals in say differently, that's how they will stay.
They transported yesterday and I have a second developing clutch so I hope to be able to contribute a little more to the discussion once they start coming out if water. For reference here are the three I've got. The one that reminds me of your frogs is the light yellow female. The "lita" looking frog is also a female and the orange frog is male.

Chris

Chris, could you please explain what a muddy frog would look like then? Or better yet, a dull and intermediate frog?
Your three pictured all have similar lita netting and netting undertones . That's a good thing in my book. I'd gladly trade for the light colored female you have for either of the two in question if they turn out to be females. They do indeed have much higher amounts of brown , not so much black.
These came in in the last shipment. Offspring of the penned frogs.
Darts with parasites are analogous to mixed tanks, there are no known benefits to the frogs with either.


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Re: Input on 'Paru' - pics

Postby edwardsatc » Mon Sep 17, 2012 7:00 pm

RichFrye wrote:I ask again, what are your thoughts on the two frogs in question?


My first thought is that those are some fucking ugly frogs!That goes for all the Paru's I've seen.

To be honest I've had my doubts about the lineage of these 'Parus'. Especially considering the description given of how these frogs were penned and raised.

That said, if I had to make a choice on how to manage them, I'd probably tend to go with the information given from those on the ground. Never mind the fact that considering the huge amount of variability of these imports, breeding "like" to "like" is a personal judgement call that will vary wildly between those keeping them. How do we define which of these frogs looks most like any other? I'll bet if we put ten frogs out there, we'd all have different opinions of which to pair up based on likeness.

If there has been some hybridizing between morphs, the damage has already been done and we're left with what we have. Bickering about it here won't change that.

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Re: Input on 'Paru' - pics

Postby RichFrye » Mon Sep 17, 2012 7:04 pm

What would be nice is hard info on exactly how these were collected. What went into what pens? How was that decided? Where were such and such found in relation to other penned. Facts.
I'd love to see a video of ten different phenotypes hopping around outside of the pens actually interbreeding in the wild.

And yes, like to like will be very subjective, I agree. Attempting to do so is a start though.
Darts with parasites are analogous to mixed tanks, there are no known benefits to the frogs with either.


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Re: Input on 'Paru' - pics

Postby edwardsatc » Mon Sep 17, 2012 7:34 pm

RichFrye wrote:What would be nice is hard info on exactly how these were collected. What went into what pens? How was that decided? Where were such and such found in relation to other penned. Facts.


Yes, I agree. I don't understand why they have not been more open about this. One of the reasons I still have some doubt ...

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Re: Input on 'Paru' - pics

Postby RichFrye » Mon Sep 17, 2012 11:21 pm

JJuchems wrote:Rich, how do they look after a few days? My shipment looked identical to yours, however their colors are brightening.



I don't do Facebook Jason. Is it possible to post before and after pics here?
I've never experienced color changes soon after shipping. Re-hydration yes, but no quick beneficial color changes. I'm not sure what would reduce or change pigmentation during shipping. Any ideas?
I'll check back in with my buddy, but I've talked to him about every other day since they came in and I'm sure he'd let me know of any brightening or positive changes in general. We are collecting pics from others interested in matching up and trading. I've not heard of any changes but yours.
Pics here would go a long way.
Darts with parasites are analogous to mixed tanks, there are no known benefits to the frogs with either.


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Re: Input on 'Paru' - pics

Postby JJuchems » Mon Sep 17, 2012 11:42 pm

I have two that are similar and I am hoping and praying they end up being 1.1. This was taken a few days ago (weds or thurs). Image


They both are displaying more gold. Here is a picture from today: Image

Here are my other two, the last has more greenish/blue undertones coming out.

Image

Image
Later and Happy Frogging,
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Re: Input on 'Paru' - pics

Postby JJuchems » Mon Sep 17, 2012 11:51 pm

I was not impressed when I opened the box, I was looking forward to frogs like what Adam and others have posted. My wife gave me the look after showing here the pictures.

One issue I did find was an abscess on one of its toes.I went to take a picture while hold the frog and it exploded. You can see the blood on my figures. I did place Neosporin on it. It almost looks like it was shut in the deli cup lid during cupping.

Image
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Re: Input on 'Paru' - pics

Postby RichFrye » Mon Sep 17, 2012 11:54 pm

Thanks. It'll be interesting to check them out in a week or so. I'll try to get new pics around that time too.

JJuchems wrote:I have two that are similar and I am hoping and praying they end up being 1.1. This was taken a few days ago (weds or thurs). Image


They both are displaying more gold. Here is a picture from today: Image

Here are my other two, the last has more greenish/blue undertones coming out.

Image

Image
Darts with parasites are analogous to mixed tanks, there are no known benefits to the frogs with either.


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Re: Input on 'Paru' - pics

Postby RichFrye » Mon Sep 17, 2012 11:57 pm

JJuchems wrote:I was not impressed when I opened the box, I was looking forward to frogs like what Adam and others have posted. My wife gave me the look after showing here the pictures.

One issue I did find was an abscess on one of its toes.I went to take a picture while hold the frog and it exploded. You can see the blood on my figures. I did place Neosporin on it. It almost looks like it was shut in the deli cup lid during cupping.

Image


That's the last frog pictured? Almost looks as if the first and last should be bred together...but photos do not always do justice to nuances.

I don't know of too many people who are looking at the duller ones and thinking 'beautiful'.
Darts with parasites are analogous to mixed tanks, there are no known benefits to the frogs with either.


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Re: Input on 'Paru' - pics

Postby Roadrunner » Tue Sep 18, 2012 12:02 am

Mark told you who to get in touch w/ for that info. He said he was partnering w/ wikiri to sell the frogs. He did not pen, collect them and receives them in shipment to distribute. If your that interested why don't you contact them instead of speculating?

edwardsatc wrote:
RichFrye wrote:What would be nice is hard info on exactly how these were collected. What went into what pens? How was that decided? Where were such and such found in relation to other penned. Facts.


Yes, I agree. I don't understand why they have not been more open about this. One of the reasons I still have some doubt ...
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Re: Input on 'Paru' - pics

Postby Rusty_Shackleford » Tue Sep 18, 2012 12:07 am

Is there a possibility that these frogs are really this variable but because of coloration, the red/orange/yellow ones were collected in greater numbers due to increased visibility as opposed to the greenish/brown/muddy ones? Just a thought with no basis in fact.
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Re: Input on 'Paru' - pics

Postby RichFrye » Tue Sep 18, 2012 12:18 am

Aaron, I can dig out the proclamation of two things. One was the statement that they were going to produce more info on exactly what the situation was down there (proclaimed around May I believe) and two is the fact that the scientist quoted made it clear genetic testing was needed due to their not understanding what was going on.
When info is lacking I'll keep like to like. I'll shoot an email off tomorrow and post what info is given me.
The offer to breed two likes was recently brought to me, so no rush was seen. These are not sexed yet, so I think I can wait until tomorrow to email. :wink:


aaronsfrogfarm wrote:Mark told you who to get in touch w/ for that info. He said he was partnering w/ wikiri to sell the frogs. He did not pen, collect them and receives them in shipment to distribute. If your that interested why don't you contact them instead of speculating?

edwardsatc wrote:
RichFrye wrote:What would be nice is hard info on exactly how these were collected. What went into what pens? How was that decided? Where were such and such found in relation to other penned. Facts.


Yes, I agree. I don't understand why they have not been more open about this. One of the reasons I still have some doubt ...
Darts with parasites are analogous to mixed tanks, there are no known benefits to the frogs with either.


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Re: Input on 'Paru' - pics

Postby RichFrye » Tue Sep 18, 2012 12:23 am

Rusty_Shackleford wrote:Is there a possibility that these frogs are really this variable but because of coloration, the red/orange/yellow ones were collected in greater numbers due to increased visibility as opposed to the greenish/brown/muddy ones? Just a thought with no basis in fact.


Jon, one of the reasons you see so many males from Germany is due to the collecting process. Males call, males are found more often. So be it a bright or dull male, makes no difference, the smugglers zero in on calling.
There are mean representations of many groups in Lotter's book.
Darts with parasites are analogous to mixed tanks, there are no known benefits to the frogs with either.


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Re: Input on 'Paru' - pics

Postby Roadrunner » Tue Sep 18, 2012 12:25 am

So you don't know what the parents looked like or if they were bred like to like, or "crossed and muddied"?
I'll resume reading this when I start seeing pics of adults and offspring at a couple months of age. Until then it's nothing but speculation about them looking dull and muddied because of any kind of crossing. From seeing pics of the morph on the german website they look like they could be representative of that population.
RichFrye wrote:
Tuckinrim8 wrote:Rich, this is just my opinion but the two frogs you've posted do not look muddy to me. All of the Paru I have seen in person (7) have a varying degree of black to them. The two you've pictured just seem to have a much higher amount. How about giving us some information on the frogs you've pictured. Did these come in though understory's last shipment or are they offspring from the first?

I am keeping my group of three very different frogs together as that is how I received them from Mark and until the people who put all the work into bringing these animals in say differently, that's how they will stay.
They transported yesterday and I have a second developing clutch so I hope to be able to contribute a little more to the discussion once they start coming out if water. For reference here are the three I've got. The one that reminds me of your frogs is the light yellow female. The "lita" looking frog is also a female and the orange frog is male.

Chris

Chris, could you please explain what a muddy frog would look like then? Or better yet, a dull and intermediate frog?
Your three pictured all have similar lita netting and netting undertones . That's a good thing in my book. I'd gladly trade for the light colored female you have for either of the two in question if they turn out to be females. They do indeed have much higher amounts of brown , not so much black.
These came in in the last shipment. Offspring of the penned frogs.
"I don't want to believe, I want to know" Carl Sagan(my fav. stoner:)


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