Input on 'Paru' - pics

Oophaga arborea
Oophaga granulifera
Oophaga histrionica
Oophaga lehmanni
Oophaga occultator
Oophaga pumilio
Oophaga speciosa
Oophaga sylvatica
Oophaga vicentei
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RichFrye
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Re: Input on 'Paru' - pics

Postby RichFrye » Tue Sep 18, 2012 12:35 am

That's correct. None of the people buying were given pictures of the parents nor choices of phenotypes, nor sexed frogs. Nobody knew exactly how they were bred in the pens.
I have suggested more than once that we'll need to wait until offspring are produced. Possibly quite a few.
But, if people do not look at some of these frogs and think dull/muddy , I'd really like to see an example of what people think really is dull and muddy.

aaronsfrogfarm wrote:So you don't know what the parents looked like or if they were bred like to like, or "crossed and muddied"?
I'll resume reading this when I start seeing pics of adults and offspring at a couple months of age. Until then it's nothing but speculation about them looking dull and muddied because of any kind of crossing. From seeing pics of the morph on the german website they look like they could be representative of that population.
RichFrye wrote:
Tuckinrim8 wrote:Rich, this is just my opinion but the two frogs you've posted do not look muddy to me. All of the Paru I have seen in person (7) have a varying degree of black to them. The two you've pictured just seem to have a much higher amount. How about giving us some information on the frogs you've pictured. Did these come in though understory's last shipment or are they offspring from the first?

I am keeping my group of three very different frogs together as that is how I received them from Mark and until the people who put all the work into bringing these animals in say differently, that's how they will stay.
They transported yesterday and I have a second developing clutch so I hope to be able to contribute a little more to the discussion once they start coming out if water. For reference here are the three I've got. The one that reminds me of your frogs is the light yellow female. The "lita" looking frog is also a female and the orange frog is male.

Chris

Chris, could you please explain what a muddy frog would look like then? Or better yet, a dull and intermediate frog?
Your three pictured all have similar lita netting and netting undertones . That's a good thing in my book. I'd gladly trade for the light colored female you have for either of the two in question if they turn out to be females. They do indeed have much higher amounts of brown , not so much black.
These came in in the last shipment. Offspring of the penned frogs.
Darts with parasites are analogous to mixed tanks, there are no known benefits to the frogs with either.


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Re: Input on 'Paru' - pics

Postby Roadrunner » Tue Sep 18, 2012 12:44 am

So you want them sexed too? How do you know NOBODY knew how they were pen bred? Did people ask? Didn't you know how they were bred before you traded or bought these ones your taking pics of? Didn't that thread about pen breeding take place before the 2nd shipment?
Then why are you starting a thread trying to insinuate these frogs were not bred like to like when you don't know? Why are you trying to insinuate that people breeding unlike to like are going to produce shitty looking frogs when you don't know?

Like I said I'll be back when there are pics of offspring and parents to compare.
"I don't want to believe, I want to know" Carl Sagan(my fav. stoner:)

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Re: Input on 'Paru' - pics

Postby RichFrye » Tue Sep 18, 2012 1:01 am

aaronsfrogfarm wrote:So you want them sexed too?


No, my point is it will take some time to sex like to like or other-wise, as sexed frogs were not offered.
aaronsfrogfarm wrote: How do you know NOBODY knew how they were pen bred? Did people ask? Didn't you know how they were bred before you traded or bought these ones your taking pics of? Didn't that thread about pen breeding take place before the 2nd shipment?

You've not read the thread/s Aaron. I was offered a like to like pair (if we can sex and or trade for one) by a friend who trusts my breeding ability. I've neither bought nor traded yet, my friend bought. No info had been offered my friend.
aaronsfrogfarm wrote:Then why are you starting a thread trying to insinuate these frogs were not bred like to like when you don't know? Why are you trying to insinuate that people breeding unlike to like are going to produce shitty looking frogs when you don't know?

Like I said I'll be back when there are pics of offspring and parents to compare.


I have offered the findings of scientists who study darts and have found breeding hybrids results in dull frogs.
I've offered my personal experience in finding like to like produces like in obligates.
I've offered the fact that if this is truly a vastly , hugely polymorphic population of darts it is the very first known to man.
I offer you once again to show me a muddier representation if you can.
I also have stated before I knew the aesthetics of these new imports that I suspect that if we continually start seeing muddy frogs we should rethink husbandry saying to mix.

Come back with your results and I will do the same and I'm sure others will also.
One thing is for sure, there are new owners not thrilled with the dull colors.
Darts with parasites are analogous to mixed tanks, there are no known benefits to the frogs with either.


If tone is more important to you than content, you are at the wrong place.

My new email address is rich.frye@icloud.com and new phone number is 773 577 3476

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Re: Input on 'Paru' - pics

Postby thedude » Tue Sep 18, 2012 3:08 am

RichFrye wrote:
Jon, one of the reasons you see so many males from Germany is due to the collecting process. Males call, males are found more often. So be it a bright or dull male, makes no difference, the smugglers zero in on calling.
There are mean representations of many groups in Lotter's book.


When were we talking about smuggled frogs? These were collected long before they could call.

What's really interesting to me is that Rich is talking about how some of these frogs (the dull ones here) are "muddied" from mixing different morphs. And yet in the other thread one of his main points was nobody had any intermediates between the different phenotypes. So lets get this straight, which is it Rich? Are the frogs mixed and you don't like it? Or are they not mixed and you don't like it?

I still don't get why people are arguing about this. It is completely obvious to me and others that they should all be bred together. All of them came from the SAME LOCAL. This local is very SMALL, with no physical boundaries keeping any frogs separate. Obviously there are no sexual or other biological barriers because we have seen intermediates between different phenotypes. The pens were set up and they added tons of broms to improve habitat. They can't show you pictures of the parents because they don't know which parents laid which eggs obviously, since they were all farmed IN THE FIELD. People, this is getting ridiculous. Have you ever heard of so many different distinct populations existing within such a small area? No, it just doesn't happen.
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Re: Input on 'Paru' - pics

Postby Roadrunner » Tue Sep 18, 2012 8:39 am

http://www.dartfrogz.com/f4/rarest-dend ... ndex2.html
I couldn't bring the pics over to this thread. Second last post. Those pumilio would be hard to see in any mud patch on my lawn right now.
RichFrye wrote:I offer you once again to show me a muddier representation if you can.
I also have stated before I knew the aesthetics of these new imports that I suspect that if we continually start seeing muddy frogs we should rethink husbandry saying to mix.

Come back with your results and I will do the same and I'm sure others will also.
One thing is for sure, there are new owners not thrilled with the dull colors.
"I don't want to believe, I want to know" Carl Sagan(my fav. stoner:)

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Re: Input on 'Paru' - pics

Postby ChrisK » Tue Sep 18, 2012 9:47 am

I think a couple of years ago, Europeans said they were mixing Uyamas with Robalos because they think they're the same frog which might be causing that?

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Re: Input on 'Paru' - pics

Postby RichFrye » Tue Sep 18, 2012 10:29 am

thedude wrote:
RichFrye wrote:
Jon, one of the reasons you see so many males from Germany is due to the collecting process. Males call, males are found more often. So be it a bright or dull male, makes no difference, the smugglers zero in on calling.
There are mean representations of many groups in Lotter's book.

thedude wrote:When were we talking about smuggled frogs? These were collected long before they could call.

Aaron brought up the fact that collected frogs in the past may have only been bright ...in the past and on EU sites there are smuggled frogs. This is what I was referring to.
thedude wrote:What's really interesting to me is that Rich is talking about how some of these frogs (the dull ones here) are "muddied" from mixing different morphs. And yet in the other thread one of his main points was nobody had any intermediates between the different phenotypes. So lets get this straight, which is it Rich? Are the frogs mixed and you don't like it? Or are they not mixed and you don't like it?


When two of the 9?? phenotypes are earth colored, but have strong patterns, when mix for collected breeding you get intermediate muddy patterns and earth colors. It's both mud and intermediate.
The frogs I pictured were not young that were shipped to customers. And if there were produced mixed in, we not only have intermediates but also the mud we are seeing with frogs I've posted and Jason has posted.
So, we see intermdiate between the earth tones produced, and mud both.

thedude wrote:I still don't get why people are arguing about this. It is completely obvious to me and others that they should all be bred together.


And it is now just as obvious to others that they should not be bred together until good hard facts come out.

thedude wrote: All of them came from the SAME LOCAL. This local is very SMALL, with no physical boundaries keeping any frogs separate. Obviously there are no sexual or other biological barriers because we have seen intermediates between different phenotypes.


Again, we'll see. I have seen intermediates and dull representatives. This is a warning sign against hybrids, as posted in the papers.


thedude wrote: The pens were set up and they added tons of broms to improve habitat. They can't show you pictures of the parents because they don't know which parents laid which eggs obviously, since they were all farmed IN THE FIELD. People, this is getting ridiculous. Have you ever heard of so many different distinct populations existing within such a small area? No, it just doesn't happen.


If you can't find breeding in a one hectare pen we will NEVER know how they are breeding. I'll bet you could listen and observe males and females courting, take pics, etc.
But , I totally agree with your last statement...so many different distinct populations existing in such a small area absolutely has never happened. You agree with what I've been pointing out all along. You make my point for me.
Darts with parasites are analogous to mixed tanks, there are no known benefits to the frogs with either.


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Re: Input on 'Paru' - pics

Postby RichFrye » Tue Sep 18, 2012 10:35 am

Can not see the thread at all until banning lifted, but if it were an Uyama or Robalo from EU, then yes, as Chris mentioned...when I contacted the Dendrobase to offer both pics of the Uyama and Robalo from the study I was told that they would love my pics but would put them all together and label them as one frog because they thought they were all one frog locale.
I did not give them my pics and as we know now, and as I told them, they are two separate breeding populations. Not to be mixed due to issues with dull colors and intermediate patterns.
aaronsfrogfarm wrote:http://www.dartfrogz.com/f4/rarest-dendrobates-us-hobby-451/index2.html
I couldn't bring the pics over to this thread. Second last post. Those pumilio would be hard to see in any mud patch on my lawn right now.
RichFrye wrote:I offer you once again to show me a muddier representation if you can.
I also have stated before I knew the aesthetics of these new imports that I suspect that if we continually start seeing muddy frogs we should rethink husbandry saying to mix.

Come back with your results and I will do the same and I'm sure others will also.
One thing is for sure, there are new owners not thrilled with the dull colors.
Darts with parasites are analogous to mixed tanks, there are no known benefits to the frogs with either.


If tone is more important to you than content, you are at the wrong place.

My new email address is rich.frye@icloud.com and new phone number is 773 577 3476

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Re: Input on 'Paru' - pics

Postby thedude » Wed Sep 19, 2012 2:59 am

RichFrye wrote:
If you can't find breeding in a one hectare pen we will NEVER know how they are breeding. I'll bet you could listen and observe males and females courting, take pics, etc.
But , I totally agree with your last statement...so many different distinct populations existing in such a small area absolutely has never happened. You agree with what I've been pointing out all along. You make my point for me.


Nice try turning that around on me but I did not prove your point for you. I'm not saying they are distinct populations, I'm saying they are morphs within a population, meaning just various naturally occurring phenotypes within ONE population. You are saying they are all different populations that exist in this one SMALL reserve, which has never happened and is not happening here.

Honestly, I'm just dropping out of this at this point. You ignore facts and attempt to turn things around on people. I have better things to do than listen to your BS and argue when it is completely useless. I certainly hope that people will realize that this many populations couldn't exist in such a small area, and that we should trust the herpetologists that have been studying and working with these for years.
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Re: Input on 'Paru' - pics

Postby RichFrye » Wed Sep 19, 2012 10:26 am

thedude wrote:
RichFrye wrote:
...
But , I totally agree with your last statement...so many different distinct populations existing in such a small area absolutely has never happened. You agree with what I've been pointing out all along. You make my point for me.



...
Honestly, I'm just dropping out of this at this point. You ignore facts and attempt to turn things around on people. I have better things to do than listen to your BS...


Adam, that is probably a good idea at this point. I do much , but I do not ignore facts, ever. And that is not bullshit, as you'd like to profess. Seems your frustration is getting the better of you.
I'll see you again when yet more facts come out. I plan on posting when WIKIRI gets back to me. I hope at that point you'll not profess me full of BS.
I work very , very hard at what I do, and have for quite a number of years. I take it very seriously and take all proven facts into account.
Darts with parasites are analogous to mixed tanks, there are no known benefits to the frogs with either.


If tone is more important to you than content, you are at the wrong place.

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Re: Input on 'Paru' - pics

Postby Armson » Wed Sep 19, 2012 4:48 pm

Rich, just an fyi

I have been emailing the crap out of Wikiri for several months now and I even hunted down the hosting email address. I still have heard no reply.


-Byron

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Re: Input on 'Paru' - pics

Postby RichFrye » Thu Sep 20, 2012 2:29 pm

Armson wrote:Rich, just an fyi

I have been emailing the crap out of Wikiri for several months now and I even hunted down the hosting email address. I still have heard no reply.


-Byron


Hey Byron,
They emailed back real quick, but I need to compose another email sometime tomorrow with much more detailed questions. Most all of my relevant questions either went unanswered or I was once again directed to the Dr. Coloma write-up which we have all read several times in several different threads.
Darts with parasites are analogous to mixed tanks, there are no known benefits to the frogs with either.


If tone is more important to you than content, you are at the wrong place.

My new email address is rich.frye@icloud.com and new phone number is 773 577 3476

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Re: Input on 'Paru' - pics

Postby Armson » Thu Sep 20, 2012 5:15 pm

What email did you use? I went with the one right off of their site.


-Byron

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Re: Input on 'Paru' - pics

Postby RichFrye » Thu Sep 20, 2012 9:49 pm

Armson wrote:What email did you use? I went with the one right off of their site.


-Byron



I used the one they supplied as a 'direct link', but that did not work so I just typed in whatv they had listed. I posted the email addy I used in one of these goat ropes...

They were mighty speedy. Not much extra info so far, but mighty speedy.
Darts with parasites are analogous to mixed tanks, there are no known benefits to the frogs with either.


If tone is more important to you than content, you are at the wrong place.

My new email address is rich.frye@icloud.com and new phone number is 773 577 3476

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Re: Input on 'Paru' - pics

Postby RichFrye » Mon Oct 08, 2012 11:00 am

Here are the emails sent and email received and dates.
As of yet I have not received any replies to my second or third emails. There was no info sent on how these should be bred. The two papers mentioned pertain to general breeding info (not Paru specific at all) when good info about founding groups have been provided. Not relevant to this case at all.
Simple questions asked to those who should know the answers and be able to give out info on how we should breed these frogs.
I must say I am disappointed with the lack of information given.




De: richfrye@comcast.net [mailto:richfrye@comcast.net]
Enviado el: martes, 18 de septiembre de 2012 13:27
Para: info@wikiri.com.ec
Asunto: Paru Sylvaticus


To whom it may concern,

I will be acquiring at least a pair of your 'Paru' Sylvatica, and would hope to work with even more in the near future,

I would very much love to get any and all information you may have concerning the process in which the frogs were collected, divided for breeding and any other information not already being put out to the general public.

I inquire for the purposes of the combining best and most natural breeding groups due the many morphs being presented and sold.
Thank you in advance for any and all information,

Rich Frye




From: info@wikiri.com.ec
To: richfrye@comcast.net
Sent: Wednesday, September 19, 2012 5:01:48 PM
Subject: RV: Paru Sylvaticus




Dear Rich,

Glad you are interested in breeding frogs of the "Paru" morph farmed by Wikiri SA at the Otokiki Reserve near Alto Tambo, Provincia de Esmeraldas.


Below we answer some of your questions.

We have provided Understory Enterprises a note entitled: "Insight into the natural variation of the "Paru" Oophaga sylvatica" written by Dr. Luis A. Coloma (See below).


Founder individuals were not selected by their color or any other features for breeding in controlled quadrats.


The frogs farmed (as metamorphs) by Wikiri represent the natural variation (at the metamorph stage) occurring at the exact same site and no artificial selection processes were carried out.


Metamorphs are being ranched in an aleatory manner. They may well be considered founders (of one group representing a highly variable population) for your breeding purposes.


Dr. Coloma and others will be publishing results of their work in scientific papers. Gathering data and publishing the papers will certainly will take not less than a couple of years from now. As you might understand, until the papers are published they prefer to keep the details and most of the information of their work in private. Nonetheless, they just provided Wikiri SA some references which might help on your work.


Regarding making appropriate combinations in trying to keep most of the variation of this natural population from the Otokiki reserve; they suggest the attached two articles (and references therein) for breeding guidelines and population management:


Frankham 2008
AARK Amphibian population management guidelines.


Best regards,

Ecn. Lola Guarderas
Gerente General
WIKIRI S.A.
Quito - Ecuador


Insight into the natural variation of the "Paru" Oophaga sylvatica - By Luis A. Coloma

de Understory Enterprises Inc., el El Martes, 8 de mayo de 2012 a la(s) 18:58 ·Individuals of the the Paru morph of Oophaga sylvatica (= Dendrobates sylvaticus) exported by Wikiri come from the Otokiki reserve. Otokiki reserve is located at the Alto Tambo region at an altiude of about 600-700 meters above sea level. Amount of color pattern variation within this Otokiki population, which occurs naturally, is perplexing.

At Otokiki, similar large variation in colors and patterns is seen in 3 enriched closed quadrats as well as in one enriched open quadrat, and in the control (not enriched) quadrat.

We have documented a great amount of intrapopulation variation towards the east of Alto Tambo, at Guadual (near Lita, Esmeraldas province), as well. Less color pattern variation is seen in lowland populations at Durango and Playón de San Francisco in Esmeraldas province, which depict more uniform colors.

How to interpret this variation and which are its causes?

Underlying causes of this intrapopulation variation are largely unknown and currently are a matter of speculation. For now, I am reluctant to interpret this variation as the result of hybridization, a phenomenon that can occur between species as a result of primary or secondary contact (after a period of isolation). Underlying factors behind the observed variation probably are in the evolutionary history of this population (somehow the historical human intervention in the area could have played a role as well) (not Wikiri manipulation).

Understanding the mechanisms that promote intra population divergence (such as the one observed at Otokiki reserve) and interpopulation divergence (such as the one among popualtions of O. sylvatica in the pacific lowlands of Ecuador and Colombia), and ultimately speciation is one of the most challenging and intriguing tasks in evolutionary biology. Geographical barriers, ecological gradients, genetic drift, and sexual selection are the main mechanisms (currently speculative for O. sylvatica populations, as I mentioned before) invoked to explain these processes, which are shaping the variation observed.

Centro Jambatu is very interested in explaining the evolution of coloration, morphology and behavior within and among populations of Oophaga sylvatica. We have begun a study in that sense in cooperation with a researcher at Texas, who is currently moving to Harvard University. At this time we are in the planning process and hopefully we will be doing field, molecular, and experimental work, beginning next year. The Otokiki population will becritical because of its huge coloration variability.

For a better understanding of this variation and its evolution, we need to conduct fine-tuned studies including morphological descriptions in relation to behavior, geography, and molecular population genetic structure. Also, we need to conduct lab controlled experiments to see its results. We will need to set up crosses between color morphs in order to identify color specific SNPs (single nucleotide polymorphisms) and then examine the expression bias of parental alleles in the offspring. We will study behavioral issues and also we will address questions of color determination.
Finally, I think the people who love these frogs are very lucky to have Wikiri providing farm raised frogs from a population that depicts such a great intrapopulation variation, which include dull and bright colored individuals, spotted and non-spotted frogs, orange, red, yellow and brown colors. Hopefully this variation can be preserved at the site (Otokiki). Backup populations under care of hobbyists are also important as an ex situ tool helping integrative conservation strategies. Elicio just came back from Otokiki and told us that the piece of jungle (about 140 acres) adjacent to the reserve has begun to be destroyed.

Luis A. Coloma
Centro Jambatu de Investigación y Conservación de Anfibios
Fundación Otonga



Sent By:
richfrye@comcast.net On: Sep 09/28/12 8:43 PM

To: info@wikiri.com.ec

Hello Ms. Guarderas,

I sent this email below a week ago and had not yet received a reply. My first email was answered so fast I thought I should re-send this email to you to make sure you had received my second inquiry.

Thanks once again for taking time to try to answer all my questions. I very much look forward to your reply and more info on these frogs;







Thank you for your fast reply.


I had read Dr. Coloma's report in the past a number of times. My concerns are the lack of understanding why this may be the only vastly polymorphic population of dart frogs reported in the world. And his writings that they may have been manipulated by others (not WIKIRI) and the fact he could not rule out hybridization as one possible explanation.


So my mains questions remain, how exactly were frogs chosen from the natural areas of the preserve? If one group was collected on one end of the property were other groups also collected on opposite ends of the 140 acres ? How exactly were groups chosen and place in controlled quadrant/breeding pens? I understand they were not selected by color, but how exactly were they collected and divided? Are there islands within the 140 acres with certain phenotypes? And what thought process was used before scientific studies have been completed?


There is really no scientific information/write up on how exactly to bred the frogs. I would suggest like phenotype to like phenotype until genetic testing has been completed and written up. Does this sound a proper breeding situation?


I again thank you greatly for the quick reply and hope my questions can be answered . I am very much looking forward to breeding these frogs we now have in country as natural as possible,


Rich Frye
Darts with parasites are analogous to mixed tanks, there are no known benefits to the frogs with either.


If tone is more important to you than content, you are at the wrong place.

My new email address is rich.frye@icloud.com and new phone number is 773 577 3476


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