Oophaga pumilio Ryan and Escudo similarities - pics

Oophaga arborea
Oophaga granulifera
Oophaga histrionica
Oophaga lehmanni
Oophaga occultator
Oophaga pumilio
Oophaga speciosa
Oophaga sylvatica
Oophaga vicentei
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Re: Ryan and Escudo similarities

Postby BluePumilio » Sat Mar 09, 2013 7:28 pm

Why I certainly did not have the pleasure of knowing Chris except through his writings, was it really reasonable of him to expect that these populations would be kept secret? I mean, if he discovered them, someone else can as well. He gave the general locations and the locals already knew of them but perhaps didn't have names set to them. All you would have to do it go, show some photos, and talk to a few people. That's exactly how I find animals I'm looking for in the field and it generally works.

I am curious if recent collections have had a negative impact on the wild populations. That would be fascinating to know.

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Re: Ryan and Escudo similarities

Postby Philsuma » Sat Mar 09, 2013 8:07 pm

I read an article where someone did some research and found that whatever Herp was on the cover of 'Reptiles Magazine" - that animal would sell more of from importers to retail stores. Doesn't sound hard to believe, does it ? The power of suggestion. Look at all the people that drool over any given histo pic even when they don't fully know what it is, they want it due to the showcased pic. CvdL's 'secret' pumilio locales may have been found out / discovered by others sooner or later, but not broadcasting some select populations was a good a thing as prudently possible.

Whatever frog that Dart Den showcases on it's 'cover' / POTM pic....I usually get 2-3 PM's or emails about them and who has them. Human nature.Predictable.Call something rare or make it desirable and blammo...so it is.

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Re: Ryan and Escudo similarities

Postby BluePumilio » Sat Mar 09, 2013 9:08 pm

Yeah, but is there something wrong with that?

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Re: Ryan and Escudo similarities

Postby Philsuma » Sat Mar 09, 2013 9:57 pm

BluePumilio wrote:Yeah, but is there something wrong with that?


A population of Oophaga pumilio extirpated ?

Yes.

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Re: Ryan and Escudo similarities

Postby BluePumilio » Sat Mar 09, 2013 10:05 pm

Well, I agree with that, though has that happened before with pumilio?

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Re: Ryan and Escudo similarities

Postby RichFrye » Sun Mar 10, 2013 11:13 am

BluePumilio wrote:Why I certainly did not have the pleasure of knowing Chris except through his writings, was it really reasonable of him to expect that these populations would be kept secret? I mean, if he discovered them, someone else can as well. He gave the general locations and the locals already knew of them but perhaps didn't have names set to them. All you would have to do it go, show some photos, and talk to a few people. That's exactly how I find animals I'm looking for in the field and it generally works.

I am curious if recent collections have had a negative impact on the wild populations. That would be fascinating to know.


I'm probably jumping the gun assuming the frogs being called 'whatever every can't agree on right now' would be the same populations as Chris'. That's a newbie mistake.
One thing's for sure. The pics posted here do not look like escudo, baring JP's I posted.

It would indeed be fascinating if Panama attempted to do any sustainable harvest studies. But they won't.
Darts with parasites are analogous to mixed tanks, there are no known benefits to the frogs with either.


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Re: Ryan and Escudo similarities

Postby RichFrye » Sun Mar 10, 2013 11:25 am

BluePumilio wrote:Well, I agree with that, though has that happened before with pumilio?



How would anyone know if a single breeding population was over harvested to the point of extirpation in Panama? Maybe trust what the researchers are telling us. Not those collecting them off the floor for quick sales.
The people involved with harvesting the frogs don't care. If hobbyists cry for a known population of frogs like Robalo, the calls go out to grab anything robalo-like found.
Now, you either trust (haha) the foreigner (to Panama) grabbing the frogs which end up looking like no Robalo I've ever seen and CALL them Robalo, when if fact they are something else (like Uyama, which a variable)...or you really did get your order and have helped to wipe out a population that the researchers involved in studying these frogs agree is a population in big trouble now.
Either way, not great for the hobby. Either bad labels , once again, or bad harvesting practises.
Darts with parasites are analogous to mixed tanks, there are no known benefits to the frogs with either.


If tone is more important to you than content, you are at the wrong place.

My new email address is rich.frye@icloud.com and new phone number is 773 577 3476

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Re: Ryan and Escudo similarities

Postby BluePumilio » Sun Mar 10, 2013 11:37 am

Ryan

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Image

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Re: Ryan and Escudo similarities

Postby BluePumilio » Sun Mar 10, 2013 11:41 am

When I see actual research, that would be interesting.

RichFrye wrote:
BluePumilio wrote:Well, I agree with that, though has that happened before with pumilio?



How would anyone know if a single breeding population was over harvested to the point of extirpation in Panama? Maybe trust what the researchers are telling us. Not those collecting them off the floor for quick sales.
The people involved with harvesting the frogs don't care. If hobbyists cry for a known population of frogs like Robalo, the calls go out to grab anything robalo-like found.
Now, you either trust (haha) the foreigner (to Panama) grabbing the frogs which end up looking like no Robalo I've ever seen and CALL them Robalo, when if fact they are something else (like Uyama, which a variable)...or you really did get your order and have helped to wipe out a population that the researchers involved in studying these frogs agree is a population in big trouble now.
Either way, not great for the hobby. Either bad labels , once again, or bad harvesting practises.

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Re: Ryan and Escudo similarities

Postby RichFrye » Sun Mar 10, 2013 11:54 am

Most definately NOT escudo, if we are going by phenotype . And, I see spotting on more than not.

BluePumilio wrote:Ryan

Image
Image
Image
Image
Image
Darts with parasites are analogous to mixed tanks, there are no known benefits to the frogs with either.


If tone is more important to you than content, you are at the wrong place.

My new email address is rich.frye@icloud.com and new phone number is 773 577 3476

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Re: Ryan and Escudo similarities

Postby RichFrye » Sun Mar 10, 2013 11:56 am

And, when I see actual GPS plots, that will be REALLY interesting.
I have mine...

BluePumilio wrote:When I see actual research, that would be interesting.

RichFrye wrote:
BluePumilio wrote:Well, I agree with that, though has that happened before with pumilio?



How would anyone know if a single breeding population was over harvested to the point of extirpation in Panama? Maybe trust what the researchers are telling us. Not those collecting them off the floor for quick sales.
The people involved with harvesting the frogs don't care. If hobbyists cry for a known population of frogs like Robalo, the calls go out to grab anything robalo-like found.
Now, you either trust (haha) the foreigner (to Panama) grabbing the frogs which end up looking like no Robalo I've ever seen and CALL them Robalo, when if fact they are something else (like Uyama, which a variable)...or you really did get your order and have helped to wipe out a population that the researchers involved in studying these frogs agree is a population in big trouble now.
Either way, not great for the hobby. Either bad labels , once again, or bad harvesting practises.
Darts with parasites are analogous to mixed tanks, there are no known benefits to the frogs with either.


If tone is more important to you than content, you are at the wrong place.

My new email address is rich.frye@icloud.com and new phone number is 773 577 3476

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Re: Ryan and Escudo similarities

Postby BluePumilio » Sun Mar 10, 2013 11:58 am

No one thinks they are escudo, just similar coloration. Most did not have spotting from the ones that came in.

As for GPS plots, couldn't they make those up, too? I see that being brought up if GPS info was given. The same problem as giving a name.

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Re: Ryan and Escudo similarities

Postby RichFrye » Sun Mar 10, 2013 12:01 pm

BluePumilio wrote:No one thinks they are escudo, just similar coloration. Most did not have spotting from the ones that came in.

As for GPS plots, couldn't they make those up, too? I see that being brought up if GPS info was given. The same problem as giving a name.



I'm glad that if these are a mainland morph nobody will ever think them escudo. Good.

Who is "they"?. Researchers or the guys grabbing them for export?
It's all about trust. No , I don't trust "they" if "they" are the guys involved in Panama exporting and in FL importing. "They" do not instill trust in me.
Darts with parasites are analogous to mixed tanks, there are no known benefits to the frogs with either.


If tone is more important to you than content, you are at the wrong place.

My new email address is rich.frye@icloud.com and new phone number is 773 577 3476

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Re: Ryan and Escudo similarities

Postby BluePumilio » Sun Mar 10, 2013 12:05 pm

I just like the neat frogs. Good enough for me. :)

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Re: Ryan and Escudo similarities

Postby RichFrye » Sun Mar 10, 2013 12:12 pm

One other issue.
IF someone who was shown the locales did not pass along the info...in other words , IF people are guessing by phenotypes , ONCE AGAIN, then why can't "they" just make up their own silly billy-bob-jane-susie-trent names?

It's been awhile since I stated this, but, there's no way to absolutely and definitively locale a pum by looking at it.
So showing pics to the locals does not a Chris frog locale make .
Darts with parasites are analogous to mixed tanks, there are no known benefits to the frogs with either.


If tone is more important to you than content, you are at the wrong place.

My new email address is rich.frye@icloud.com and new phone number is 773 577 3476

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Re: Ryan and Escudo similarities

Postby BluePumilio » Sun Mar 10, 2013 12:17 pm

Rich, good thing we are ID'ing frogs by import date & name, right?

Some people will never be happy.

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Re: Ryan and Escudo similarities

Postby RichFrye » Sun Mar 10, 2013 12:22 pm

No, actually it's not a good thing at all.
What's to stop some kid that's picking up a frog in the AM (of March 10, 2013) from mixing them with the frogs he picks up hours kilometers later in the PM?
Or would you care to tell me all about the actual Farm Raising process?

No, some people will never be happy with what's going on in Panama until it's done right. And there's currently no incentive for that to happen.

The battle cry of "I just like the frog". Heard that one many times to excuse other issues.
Darts with parasites are analogous to mixed tanks, there are no known benefits to the frogs with either.


If tone is more important to you than content, you are at the wrong place.

My new email address is rich.frye@icloud.com and new phone number is 773 577 3476

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Re: Ryan and Escudo similarities

Postby RichFrye » Sun Mar 10, 2013 12:24 pm

BluePumilio wrote:...

Some people will never be happy.


I'm VERY happy with the way CR does their exports. It's where I have settled in my interests. They do it right.
We are in agreement on this I suppose?
Darts with parasites are analogous to mixed tanks, there are no known benefits to the frogs with either.


If tone is more important to you than content, you are at the wrong place.

My new email address is rich.frye@icloud.com and new phone number is 773 577 3476

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Re: Ryan and Escudo similarities

Postby BluePumilio » Sun Mar 10, 2013 12:26 pm

I like the way CR does things, yep.

I'm ok with WC if it is sustainable, but I do prefer specimens that have truly been farmed as more care is given towards them.

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Re: Ryan and Escudo similarities

Postby RichFrye » Sun Mar 10, 2013 12:35 pm

BluePumilio wrote:...

I'm ok with WC if it is sustainable...



Me too.
No way now to know what is coming in from Panama is sustainable, right now.
So , I guess you don't really know how you feel about Panama's WC harvest.
Darts with parasites are analogous to mixed tanks, there are no known benefits to the frogs with either.


If tone is more important to you than content, you are at the wrong place.

My new email address is rich.frye@icloud.com and new phone number is 773 577 3476


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