The Recent 'Glut" of Panamanian O. pumilio imports

Oophaga arborea
Oophaga granulifera
Oophaga histrionica
Oophaga lehmanni
Oophaga occultator
Oophaga pumilio
Oophaga speciosa
Oophaga sylvatica
Oophaga vicentei
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Philsuma
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The Recent 'Glut" of Panamanian O. pumilio imports

Postby Philsuma » Tue Apr 02, 2013 12:36 pm

Not sure if 'glut' is the right word,because I'm not convinced that the total numbers are even any higher than a few years past, but what we ARE seeing is something new to the hobby.

The 2012-13 import shipments are containing many more different populations (morphs) and what seems like a concerted attempt to provide these different coloured and patterned animals at the direct request of the hobby.

It is 'business 101" to provide a new,flashy product to outsell the older stuff and that methodology is definitely at work here.

Discussion Topic:

"Where do you see this trend fitting into the Hobby, and what is the future for these newer animals and the species in general" ?

Let's discuss.

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Re: The Recent 'Glut" of Panamanian o. pumilio imports

Postby Sally » Tue Apr 02, 2013 2:34 pm

The new pumilio imports will be drastically reduced in number, from whatever their import number was, within the year.
There will be countless assumptions and arguments over what morph/locale/lne they are. Yet they will sell like hot cakes and the demand for more will continue.

My feelings on this subject won't be popular on this forum or any other, but I have pretty much lost any interest in any import unless it is proven sustainable. With the proven part being transparent & fully understood by the "common folk".

100% hypocritical of me to feel this way, as every frog I keep, came from some import at some point.

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Re: The Recent 'Glut" of Panamanian o. pumilio imports

Postby Philsuma » Tue Apr 02, 2013 2:40 pm

Hi Sally,

I applaud you taking a firm stand. We are all hypocritical, so no worries there. The hobby, like most things in 'real life" contains quite a few shades of grey. Not everything is easily explained, right or wrong, black or white. The important thing IMHO is that we use these forums effectively and often. That we push - use continued discussion to arrive at best practices and advances for our hobby.

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Re: The Recent 'Glut" of Panamanian O. pumilio imports

Postby Sherman » Tue Apr 02, 2013 9:58 pm

Philsuma wrote:The 2012-13 import shipments are containing many more different populations (morphs) and what seems like a concerted attempt to provide these different coloured and patterned animals at the direct request of the hobby.

It is 'business 101" to provide a new,flashy product to outsell the older stuff and that methodology is definitely at work here.

Discussion Topic:

"Where do you see this trend fitting into the Hobby, and what is the future for these newer animals and the species in general" ?


I think I have made my views on these importations very clear here and I presume this thread will be as one sided as the ones that I have started, but heck, I'll play.

As for the trend fitting into the hobby: I feel the trend is becoming the hobby. Collecting is a hobby. I am too old/hip to use a Pokémon quote but it fits the situation so well: "Gotta catch em all." As long as people keep buying, they will keep coming in. I do not think the "hobby" has the ability (or desire) to restrain itself until these imports can be done sustainably.

The future of these animals: I suspect once the new car smell wears off, and the breeding frenzy that accompanies new imports subsides, they will dwindle in collections as they are replaced by newer and rarer frogs. Those trying to maintain them will find them harder to match up as years pass due to a lack of reliable, standardized information, eventually just breeding frogs with "look-a-likes". Wait, that is how these imports begin. :shock: Inbred, outbred, if fecundity drops, we may not know/care why. We can have some fun with them now though.

I hope I am wrong,

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Re: The Recent 'Glut" of Panamanian O. pumilio imports

Postby Philsuma » Tue Apr 02, 2013 10:15 pm

I think the pokemon analogy is WAY off base. That implies a large collection of pumilio and I'd wager there aren't even two dozen people in the U.S keeping 15-20 different 'morphs' of Oophaga pumilio. There just isn't. What we are seeing is 'one-up's manship' or people that have to have the newest car off the lot. Bastimentos are some of the prettiest frogs, and some of the most phenotyically divergent but they are old news...last weeks TV show. They are 'replaced' with Rio Brancos, Brunos and anything...anything 'NEW".

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Re: The Recent 'Glut" of Panamanian O. pumilio imports

Postby Sherman » Tue Apr 02, 2013 10:25 pm

^Agreed.
I submit "Gotta have had em all" as a replacement.

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Re: The Recent 'Glut" of Panamanian O. pumilio imports

Postby RichFrye » Wed Apr 03, 2013 12:02 am

Philsuma wrote:... Bastimentos are some of the prettiest frogs, and some of the most phenotyically divergent but they are old news...last weeks TV show. They are 'replaced' with Rio Brancos, Brunos and anything...anything 'NEW".



Actually, there is a HUGE resurgence and want for Cemetary bastis, as they are as close to a known locale as we have coming from JR. and the CB ones we have had little reason to be claimed as Cemetary when possibly being something else. Simply, they have not been a target of nearly as much disinformation or guesswork, for a number of reasons.
Those are only a few reasons why the 'sudden' want for them, people are tired of bad info . And not everyone in our hobby is easily distracted by shiny new things.
Brancos, yeah , those have crystal clear lineage...yup. Brunos, bla bla bla

Spellcheck is not working Phil.
Darts with parasites are analogous to mixed tanks, there are no known benefits to the frogs with either.


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Re: The Recent 'Glut" of Panamanian O. pumilio imports

Postby Julio » Tue Apr 30, 2013 5:22 pm

The real sad part is that the flood of new imports just so happened shortly after Chris's death who used to look after a lot of land
GO ORANGE

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Re: The Recent 'Glut" of Panamanian O. pumilio imports

Postby cbreon » Wed May 01, 2013 9:29 am

Philsuma wrote:I think the pokemon analogy is WAY off base. That implies a large collection of pumilio and I'd wager there aren't even two dozen people in the U.S keeping 15-20 different 'morphs' of Oophaga pumilio. There just isn't.


I have certainly wondered about this...You might be right about 15-20, although it would seem there are quite a few keeping 5-10 locales. However, it seems there are only a few regularly producing healthy offspring.

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Re: The Recent 'Glut" of Panamanian O. pumilio imports

Postby cbreon » Wed May 01, 2013 9:42 am

RichFrye wrote:
Philsuma wrote:... Bastimentos are some of the prettiest frogs, and some of the most phenotyically divergent but they are old news...last weeks TV show. They are 'replaced' with Rio Brancos, Brunos and anything...anything 'NEW".



Actually, there is a HUGE resurgence and want for Cemetary bastis, as they are as close to a known locale as we have coming from JR. and the CB ones we have had little reason to be claimed as Cemetary when possibly being something else. Simply, they have not been a target of nearly as much disinformation or guesswork, for a number of reasons.
Those are only a few reasons why the 'sudden' want for them, people are tired of bad info . And not everyone in our hobby is easily distracted by shiny new things.
Brancos, yeah , those have crystal clear lineage...yup. Brunos, bla bla bla

Spellcheck is not working Phil.


This illustrates one of my concerns with what I would certainly consider a "glut" of recent imports. Whenever there is a wave of imports like this it seems some of the previous locales get lost in the shuffle. Next thing you know, there's only a few people, often times in unconnected circles, with a breeding pair or two and the locale struggles to exist in the hobby.

I have a few hobby friends that have only been 'frogging' for a few years now, and during the recent wave of imports I have found myslef fielding some pm's and questions. 'Craig, do you think I should buy these, I don't know if I should <insert reason>' But the point I always make to them is that it seems that 6-12 months after an import a bunch of pairs seem to emerge. We could speculate, and poke fun, for hours on the reasons why this happens. But the fact that it does, I think further illustrates the points that are being made above. At least the pokemon analogy seems to work in the sense that these imports seem to be often times traded and sold within a short time of their acquisition.

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Re: The Recent 'Glut" of Panamanian O. pumilio imports

Postby Philsuma » Sun Jun 23, 2013 3:29 pm

anyone hear tell of any other imports from Pan' lately or in the near future? Anything ?

The hobby is..sllllooooowwww right now. Summertime may have somethin to do with it. Keeping inside vivaria lends itself to bad weather (cold outside).

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Re: The Recent 'Glut" of Panamanian O. pumilio imports

Postby KGB » Sun Jun 23, 2013 5:45 pm

Very slow... I agree I think its summer, I stare at my frogs alot more when there is snow on the ground haha

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The Recent 'Glut" of Panamanian O. pumilio imports

Postby BcsTx » Sun Jun 23, 2013 5:48 pm

Philsuma wrote:anyone hear tell of any other imports from Pan' lately or in the near future? Anything ?

The hobby is..sllllooooowwww right now. Summertime may have somethin to do with it. Keeping inside vivaria lends itself to bad weather (cold outside).


All I have seen is people reselling WC pums from the recent imports.
-Beth

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Re: The Recent 'Glut" of Panamanian O. pumilio imports

Postby Dendro_Dave » Sun Jun 30, 2013 9:43 pm

There are popularity waves...everyone likes to jump on the new stuff. I think it is only a matter of time before bastis, darklands, bri bri and man creek/almarentie, cayos, bruno's and maybe some others swing back into popularity. The question is will they still be around by the time that happens? I'm kinda concerned about bri bris personally since that is one I like, but have not see much of lately.
Everything I've ever wrote is/was just my opinion :P

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The Recent 'Glut" of Panamanian O. pumilio imports

Postby BcsTx » Mon Jul 01, 2013 9:50 am

Dendro_Dave wrote:There are popularity waves...everyone likes to jump on the new stuff. I think it is only a matter of time before bastis, darklands, bri bri and man creek/almarentie, cayos, bruno's and maybe some others swing back into popularity. The question is will they still be around by the time that happens? I'm kinda concerned about bri bris personally since that is one I like, but have not see much of lately.


I agree about the "popularity" and your sentiments along with Sherman's sentiments that there may be over collection. As far as the bri bris they were common in the hobby (and IMO were victim to the popularity issue) and from what I have seen some what prolific breeders.
What is done is done, the WC pums are here just find it odd that few of their progeny are being sold compared to the actual WC frogs themselves.
The WC that were brought in had a few morphs not widespread in the hobby but many that are in the hobby now like cristobals, escudos for example.

There are some of us that keep and breed what we have and do not "move with the popularity waves" so to speak.
-Beth

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Re: The Recent 'Glut

Postby Sherman » Mon Jul 01, 2013 10:49 pm

Obligates are hard.
Repeated success requires
time and energy.

Imports breed easy.
Initial breeding wears off.
Interest lost. Sell them.

Frogs lost to "hobby".
How do you get high again?
New Imports!! I breed!

Break the cycle and
commit to the frogs you have.
Don't quit one for next.

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Re: The Recent 'Glut" of Panamanian O. pumilio imports

Postby ChrisK » Mon Jul 01, 2013 11:40 pm

100% to both these posts ^^. I'm still keeping and breeding the parents and offspring of my histos from years ago, and been holding on to 2 Colón males since they were froglets in 2009 hoping to get mates for them, which I did finally find.

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Re: The Recent 'Glut

Postby Dendro_Dave » Tue Jul 02, 2013 3:45 am

Sherman wrote:Obligates are hard.
Repeated success requires
time and energy.

Imports breed easy.
Initial breeding wears off.
Interest lost. Sell them.

Frogs lost to "hobby".
How do you get high again?
New Imports!! I breed!

Break the cycle and
commit to the frogs you have.
Don't quit one for next.


Ya I have to say I don't get giving up one species (I assumed they liked) for another...I guess maybe if you don't have room and there is something you want more, but heck I make room. I will always keep Azureus even if I don't breed them just because I love them.
Everything I've ever wrote is/was just my opinion :P

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Re: The Recent 'Glut" of Panamanian O. pumilio imports

Postby RanaVenenosa » Tue Jul 02, 2013 9:27 pm

I own 15 vivs and I am still happily married to the same wife. Does that count for longevity??
Scott - North Dallas

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The Recent 'Glut" of Panamanian O. pumilio imports

Postby BcsTx » Tue Jul 02, 2013 10:05 pm

RanaVenenosa wrote:I own 15 vivs and I am still happily married to the same wife. Does that count for longevity??

Nice derail Scott but I'll give ya credit.
-Beth


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