Are there any other legal sylvaticus besides Paru?

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Are there any other legal sylvaticus besides Paru?

Postby pafrogguy » Tue Sep 10, 2013 11:57 am

Well not sure if this is the right place to ask, but what the heck. I am trying to find out if there are legal Rio Durango Sylvaticus here is the U.S? I have read all through the old threads on multiple forums, and I see a lot of hearsay and innuendo, but no real answer either way. I have asked people in private, and still the same. I have seen the controversy of Taron's frogs being offered in May of 2012. I just never seen an answer coming out of it. Are the Paru the only legal sylvaticus here? Were the Rio Durango and Altas from last year in fact of illegal origin? Feel free to pm me or post any info. I know if I posted this elsewhere, it would be locked in 30 seconds and no info would be gained out of it. And I don't mean illegal as in the way vanzos are technically illegal. I am just looking for a black and white answer, not a grey area of speculation. I know it may not be that easy, but I would like as much solid evidence as I can find to base my decision on.
-Josh

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Re: Are there any other legal sylvaticus besides Paru?

Postby Philsuma » Tue Sep 10, 2013 12:27 pm

I'll bet $100.00 that we will not get even CLOSE to an informed answer on this question, here on this forum or pretty much anywhere else online.

At one point, I planned a sit down, face-to-face meeting with someone HIGH up the food chain in the USFW organization to try and get some clarification on all types of import/hobby related questions.

I wonder if even THAT would get us info we could use. I hear things like USFW either does not have a 'capable' legal handle on imports/exports THEMSELVES all the way to 'they will refuse to speak to us on record' and some stuff in between,

Until someone tries to knock on that door and go that route for info - then I'm going back to my $100.00 offer.

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Re: Are there any other legal sylvaticus besides Paru?

Postby RichFrye » Tue Sep 10, 2013 12:57 pm

Without speculation , a few points.
The only dart frog you will get F+W to deem "illegal" are Mysteriosis. And Peru agrees/madates that.
It is not the F+W's job to track animals back to the country of origin when being imported from a country like Germany for example. Per talking to F+W.
Histos and sylvats were once thought to be the same and there are those out there who believe them to be the same species to this day.
A visual inspection will NEVER be able to definitively ID many of the darts we now have in our hobby. Just look at all the variation being sent from one little chunk of the forest, these being "Paru". Or , Panama pums.
So, without a person being caught in the act or an admission of guilt (which one brilliant frogger did at a meet years back with his BJs...and yet he still walks around selling frogs to this day, never once questioned by F+W) one would be very hard pressed to label a frog "illegal".

Speculation and past habitual acts will obviously lead common sense users and those who learn by history to expect what Taron sells. And ANYONE who has been in the hobby any time at all and decides to by from said detriment to our hobby knows exactly what they are getting themselves into. Period.
Darts with parasites are analogous to mixed tanks, there are no known benefits to the frogs with either.


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Re: Are there any other legal sylvaticus besides Paru?

Postby Philsuma » Tue Sep 10, 2013 1:09 pm

Histronicus and Sylvaticus have both been documented through CITES to have been legally imported over quite a few different years to include high numbers of animals imported -at least for hobby purposes.

Can there be offspring of those frogs still around ? Breeding populations of F3-F5 Sure, Plausible.

Like Rich says, many different morphs/populations to include lookalike animals. Vinciente look like pumilio to everyone but an expert, for example, so do you think US Customs missed or continues to miss many many species ? I do.

Once again, like 99.76% of everything in our hobby, it all comes down to 'frog bucks'. We ALL, only have so many frog bucks to spend, so who is it gonna be? Who are you going to give your frog bucks to, when you go shopping? Are you going to be proud of your purchase and who you support ? Are you going to have to keep it hush hush and off the boards ? Is that what you want your hobby experience to be ?

Choices in life.

Choices.

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Re: Are there any other legal sylvaticus besides Paru?

Postby pafrogguy » Tue Sep 10, 2013 1:28 pm

Well the person who I would be purchasing these frogs is NOT one of those shady people. I just want to make that clear. He is a stand up guy, but he may have gotten them without knowing their legal status is what I am saying. I don't want to own frogs I can never post a picture of, sell or trade offspring from, or just have to "keep a secret." I have yet to be able to find another person with this morph though which has me a bit worried. And I see all the threads regarding questionable frogs and these have made it into those threads. These are from the supposed European imports Taron had for sale about a year and a half ago I believe, but I cannot confirm that. But it seems like all of the info surrounding that was just hearsay and speculation. Even when I asked folks point blank who had bought some of those frogs, I still got the ol' tongue in cheek BS. That just drives me nuts. If there is a problem, people just need to speak up about it. I went through something similar with galacts in the 90's. Thought it was awesome I had some of the first if not the first in the public at that time, only to find out later they were brought back in someone's pockets on an airplane. I want to avoid that type of thing again if I can. At the same time, I don't want to jump to conclusions over frogs that are 3 times removed from a party that may be unscrupulous.

Rich- does drive me a little crazy when I see mysteriousus for 50 euros on European frog sites I must say.

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Re: Are there any other legal sylvaticus besides Paru?

Postby RichFrye » Tue Sep 10, 2013 1:40 pm

I believe WIRIKi recently posted their thoughts on all sylvats of the era you mention recently.
And their position is that they are all of smuggled origin.
Also, it was certainly not my presumption that anybody in this thread was considering buying from Taron. It was more a side jab at those who claim ignorance and wear one face on Boards while patronizing those like Taron ( or EXACTLY Taron) with
whispers... behind the scenes.
Sorry if there was any misunderstanding .
Darts with parasites are analogous to mixed tanks, there are no known benefits to the frogs with either.


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Re: Are there any other legal sylvaticus besides Paru?

Postby pafrogguy » Tue Sep 10, 2013 1:53 pm

Oh no I figured that Rich. No worries at all. I just don't want anyone thinking I am thinking about buying from that guy, so I figured I would make it clear. And I don't want anyone to think I am questioning who I offered them to me, I am not. Yea I found that article and since it was a weird file, I had to type it all, then translate, lol. That was time consuming to say the least. And I have seen others offer some different types of sylvaticas, like the litas and no one make a stink about them. t is just hard to get any info on this frog, even the Paru which quite a few folks have, but no one seems to talk about.

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Re: Are there any other legal sylvaticus besides Paru?

Postby Philsuma » Tue Sep 10, 2013 1:55 pm

hmmm...but if the frogs in question are produced from frogs initially sold by Taron, then aren't you in reality:

Buying from Taron ?

Some thoughts

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Re: Are there any other legal sylvaticus besides Paru?

Postby pafrogguy » Tue Sep 10, 2013 2:55 pm

I really don't think that is a fair assumption. There are a lot of frogs out there that may have been produced by folks who turned out to be shit bags in the end, but regardless the frogs are still out there and there is no problem with them now(not smuggled or anything else, just offspring, etc). Now if these turned out to be illegal or smuggled, etc, and I still got them, then yea that would lump me into that category. But as I said before, no one can provide any real info on them, which is why I am asking. But to say that if I get frogs from someone who got them 8 months ago from someone in a trade who may have gotten them from Taron a year and a half ago, that I am buying from him myself.... well I think you are over reaching. I am obviously trying to make sure they are legit and have no ill gotten means attached to them. Now that would be a lot easier if half the people in this hobby would grow a set and just speak up about it, but they don't or won't. There are people who know but just won't come clean and that is ridiculous. Then there are folks who just live to speculate that just because an animal is associated with him at some point, it must be bad. That just can't always be 100% the case. I mean the guy had to have some legit animals at some point, right? I would hope they all couldn't be questionable. But who really knows the answer to that. A lot of folks act like they do, but when someone asks them point blank, they back peddle the hell out of the conversation.

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Re: Are there any other legal sylvaticus besides Paru?

Postby RichFrye » Tue Sep 10, 2013 3:11 pm

I think what Phil is saying is that by buying frogs from someone who bought frogs from Taron you are actually rewarding Taron , if only indirectly. And, even though some frogs may be legit some of us NEVER want to directly or INDIRECTLY reward that tool.

I won't get into a big discussion about the legal status ( many of us also factor in ethical status of those who 'imported' or even touched our frogs) of offspring of smuggled frogs that cross state lines, but one of Ed's favorite terms is "Lacy Act..."
Darts with parasites are analogous to mixed tanks, there are no known benefits to the frogs with either.


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Re: Are there any other legal sylvaticus besides Paru?

Postby pafrogguy » Tue Sep 10, 2013 3:48 pm

I understand that. And I do care about the ethics side of it as well, but remember I cannot confirm that they did in fact originate from him. I and the other party are assuming that is the only place they could have came from. I am just saying that general assumption about me is a stretch. If in fact they were acquired by shady means, I will not get them. I cannot make that anymore clear. Let me say it again... If the frogs are not actually here by legal means, I would not consider for a moment on getting them. But I own galacts, does that mean I may as well smuggled them myself? Same with vanzos, BYH's, etc. No, I really don't think it does. Don't make me out to be an a-hole, is all I am saying. lol

I know what the Lacy Act is as well. But it would not apply, IF these frogs were actually brought here by the proper means. It does not appear I will ever find out that information for sure though. And a big part of that is just the stigma that guy brought on himself with all the BS he has done. So I will air on the side of caution, because it seems if even I would get them and IF they would be legal, they would never shake that rep and I quite frankly don't want to deal with that.

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Re: Are there any other legal sylvaticus besides Paru?

Postby Philsuma » Tue Sep 10, 2013 3:57 pm

therein lies the route of the conundrum...if you can't answer so many of those questions by now...just what does that tell you ?

Btw...this forum tries hard not to judge, believe it or not. i personally feel there are MANY 'shades of grey' dealing with a lot of things in this hobby.

The main goal of this forum is 'puttin' the info out there' ect...robust uncensored discussion is the method we use, so please don't take anything here personal.

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Re: Are there any other legal sylvaticus besides Paru?

Postby pafrogguy » Tue Sep 10, 2013 4:18 pm

No worries at all. I just didn't want you to think I do actually have any kind of support for that guy, because that is just not the case. But you are right about the questions. The fact that it is so hard to get answers to these questions led me to decide against them. Its a shame though things have to get to that point. And I do like the honesty that is allowed to be expressed here. I find it funny that the original sale ad in 2012 got locked elsewhere.... after mods scooped up the frogs that is lol

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Re: Are there any other legal sylvaticus besides Paru?

Postby Armson » Tue Sep 10, 2013 8:58 pm

I found myself in this very same situation a few months ago. Problem was I knew where the frogs had originated from. The owner had straight up told me. So I decided to pass.

-Byron

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Re: Are there any other legal sylvaticus besides Paru?

Postby pafrogguy » Tue Sep 10, 2013 9:04 pm

Yea that is what I decided to do. It is just not worth the headache of wondering and I don't want them if they are here by illegal or forged document means anyways. And if I can't find out for sure, there will always be that chance.

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Re: Are there any other legal sylvaticus besides Paru?

Postby RichFrye » Tue Sep 10, 2013 9:15 pm

And, to further show the efficiency of our F+W, I know of a person here in the U.S. who imported bribri from The EU a little over a half dozen years ago and the paperwork that brought them in stated them as Speciosis.
Darts with parasites are analogous to mixed tanks, there are no known benefits to the frogs with either.


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