Oophaga pumilio punta lauren discussion

Oophaga arborea
Oophaga granulifera
Oophaga histrionica
Oophaga lehmanni
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Oophaga speciosa
Oophaga sylvatica
Oophaga vicentei
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Sherman
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Re: Oophaga pumilio punta lauren

Postby Sherman » Thu Oct 03, 2013 10:53 pm

frogs are cool wrote:I do not agree with a wc being different because of the way it was collected.

WHAT!?!
(My apologies to the O.P. here, I intended to stay out of this one.)
Impact studies. In situ breeding. Oversight.
The difference between the smash and grab pumilio importation, versus Tesoros, Wikiri, and Understory is night and day. Period. Some work to protect the populations and habitat, follow the rules, and do things right. The others get us pretty frogs from wherever we ask.

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Re: Oophaga pumilio punta lauren

Postby frogs are cool » Thu Oct 03, 2013 11:20 pm

Sherman wrote:
frogs are cool wrote:I do not agree with a wc being different because of the way it was collected.

WHAT!?!
(My apologies to the O.P. here, I intended to stay out of this one.)
Impact studies. In situ breeding. Oversight.
The difference between the smash and grab pumilio importation, versus Tesoros, Wikiri, and Understory is night and day. Period. Some work to protect the populations and habitat, follow the rules, and do things right. The others get us pretty frogs from wherever we ask.

Again a WC frog is a WC frog. We are all hyprocrites we take frogs from the wild and place them in a glass cage. That is fact. Should we make better decisions on where we get them.. if it makes you feel better about what you do than go for it. In the end its still taking a wild animal and placing it in a glass cage. I try to only purchase CB frogs from the US that have been in the hobby for awhile and that is enough to make me feel ok with keeping these frogs. To each his own enjoy your hobby.
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Re: Oophaga pumilio punta lauren

Postby Sherman » Thu Oct 03, 2013 11:41 pm

frogs are cool wrote:
Sherman wrote:
frogs are cool wrote:I do not agree with a wc being different because of the way it was collected.

WHAT!?!
(My apologies to the O.P. here, I intended to stay out of this one.)
Impact studies. In situ breeding. Oversight.
The difference between the smash and grab pumilio importation, versus Tesoros, Wikiri, and Understory is night and day. Period. Some work to protect the populations and habitat, follow the rules, and do things right. The others get us pretty frogs from wherever we ask.

Again a WC frog is a WC frog. We are all hyprocrites we take frogs from the wild and place them in a glass cage. That is fact. Should we make better decisions on where we get them.. if it makes you feel better about what you do than go for it. In the end its still taking a wild animal and placing it in a glass cage. I try to only purchase CB frogs from the US that have been in the hobby for awhile and that is enough to make me feel ok with keeping these frogs. To each his own enjoy your hobby.

What!?! I say What!?!
You are really stating that Strickley and Tesoros are on the same level when it comes to responsible frog importation?
What percentage of the population from Escudo has been collected and exported in recent years? There is no answer, because no one is paying attention. What percentage of truncatus have been exported from the Tesoros land? Zero percent, because they are all still there. The wild caught animals are the breeders. They only export offspring. Are there still truncatus on the Tesoros grounds? Yes, because Iván is protecting the land and the population of frogs.
Apples and oranges my friend, and I do enjoy my hobby. I enjoy seeing them in the wild more though. ;)

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Re: Oophaga pumilio punta lauren

Postby RichFrye » Fri Oct 04, 2013 12:03 am

frogs are cool wrote:Again a WC frog is a WC frog.


WOW! I am not sure if you are saying this out of ignorance or it is just part of your justification, but either way it's an extremely silly statement.


frogs are cool wrote:We are all hyprocrites we take frogs from the wild and place them in a glass cage. That is fact.


Speak for yourself, not me.
There are responsible ways to farm and/or collect frogs from the wild and then there is Panama. Read up on the situations and see if you feel like rewarding guys like Jr. and the likes after you are fully educated on all aspects of these pretty new frogs.

frogs are cool wrote:Should we make better decisions on where we get them..if it makes you feel better about what you do than go for it.


Obviously you don't care , so I'm not sure what makes you feel good. I have to guess new shiny froggies that are cheap.

frogs are cool wrote: In the end its still taking a wild animal and placing it in a glass cage. I try to only purchase CB frogs from the US that have been in the hobby for awhile and that is enough to make me feel ok with keeping these frogs. To each his own enjoy your hobby.



Who cares if frogs end up in a glass cage? It's a pretty safe place to live out a life, if set up correctly. Nobody really knocks glass cages these days. Those who do care knock willy-nilly collection practices , lies about locale info and impulse buys.
Your attempt to buy CB failed this time. Better 'luck' next time.
As long as you enjoy it's OK though. That's the goal here, your enjoyment.
Darts with parasites are analogous to mixed tanks, there are no known benefits to the frogs with either.


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Re: Oophaga pumilio punta lauren

Postby dendrobatman » Fri Oct 04, 2013 3:55 am

Sorry I'm new here, many of you talk about "Sickley", who is he?

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Re: Oophaga pumilio punta lauren

Postby Sherman » Fri Oct 04, 2013 9:44 am

Image
I don't know if this was taken* from punta lauren, but it was the south end of Isla de Popa about a quarter mile up a canal.

*The picture, not the frog.

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Re: Oophaga pumilio punta lauren

Postby frogs are cool » Fri Oct 04, 2013 9:53 am

RichFrye wrote:
frogs are cool wrote:Again a WC frog is a WC frog.


WOW! I am not sure if you are saying this out of ignorance or it is just part of your justification, but either way it's an extremely silly statement.

I guess it would be silly if you didnt understand what was said.
frogs are cool wrote:We are all hyprocrites we take frogs from the wild and place them in a glass cage. That is fact.


Speak for yourself, not me.
There are responsible ways to farm and/or collect frogs from the wild and then there is Panama. Read up on the situations and see if you feel like rewarding guys like Jr. and the likes after you are fully educated on all aspects of these pretty new frogs.

frogs are cool wrote:Should we make better decisions on where we get them..if it makes you feel better about what you do than go for it.


Obviously you don't care , so I'm not sure what makes you feel good. I have to guess new shiny froggies that are cheap.

Obviously i do care being this is the first Oophaga i have ever owned and all the frogs in my collection are CB in the US. Not WC frogs. Funny you keep talking about new bright and shiny the way you do your collection is pretty "shiny"
love the grannies.
frogs are cool wrote: In the end its still taking a wild animal and placing it in a glass cage. I try to only purchase CB frogs from the US that have been in the hobby for awhile and that is enough to make me feel ok with keeping these frogs. To each his own enjoy your hobby.



Who cares if frogs end up in a glass cage? It's a pretty safe place to live out a life, if set up correctly. Nobody really knocks glass cages these days. Those who do care knock willy-nilly collection practices , lies about locale info and impulse buys.
Your attempt to buy CB failed this time. Better 'luck' next time.
As long as you enjoy it's OK though. That's the goal here, your enjoyment.


And your correct no one in the hobby cares if they are taken and placed in glass cages. And the ones that do see it as a problem dont talk about it with those that refuse to see or care.
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Re: Oophaga pumilio punta lauren

Postby frogs are cool » Fri Oct 04, 2013 10:03 am

Sustainable agraculture i believe is what they are calling it " They only export offspring. " So instead of collecting breeders from the wild they are taking the future generations i see more clearly now thanks. :D and as far as the frogs they are protecting now how many years before they end up on their list for sale. But thats what its all about getting frogs we dont already have. I love every frog in my collection and i am awear of the direction of the hobby and the failing attempts we are constructing. There has to be a better way to protect these animals from over harvest than frog farms. Good idea i guess but still full of flaws. And as far as research being done by these people i have not found one paper so if someone could direct me i would be thankful.
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Re: Oophaga pumilio punta lauren

Postby frogs are cool » Fri Oct 04, 2013 10:33 am


WOW! I am not sure if you are saying this out of ignorance or it is just part of your justification, but either way it's an extremely silly statement. .



And Rich the only way to grow is to discuss no matter how "silly". My opinions on people and situations always change with new info. So forgive my ignorance today because tomorrow i will better informed.
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Re: Oophaga pumilio punta lauren

Postby RichFrye » Fri Oct 04, 2013 10:46 am

No problem.
|My suggestion would be to search out all the relevant info which has been posted over the past 12 years. It is out there for everyone to see.
Most info will be found on Frognet (not ton, but some good info none the less) , Dendroboard and here on Dart Den.
Every single situation and every single locale and every single species and every single country plays into the fact that "a WC is a WC" statement is not well thought out nor an educated statement.
Darts with parasites are analogous to mixed tanks, there are no known benefits to the frogs with either.


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Re: Oophaga pumilio punta lauren

Postby Sherman » Fri Oct 04, 2013 10:51 am

frogs are cool wrote: Sustainable agraculture i believe is what they are calling it " They only export offspring. " So instead of collecting breeders from the wild they are taking the future generations i see more clearly now thanks. :D and as far as the frogs they are protecting now how many years before they end up on their list for sale.

The frogs that Tesoros, Wikiri and Understory are protecting are available now. They are protecting the habitat to ensure that the future generations are safe, as that they did not collect the animals in such large numbers as to be sure not to extirpate them from the area.
frogs are cool wrote:But thats what its all about getting frogs we dont already have.

I would argue that we don't need any more frogs, but if we must have them, they should be from the best possible sources, that are concerned with the future of the wild populations and habitat.
frogs are cool wrote: I love every frog in my collection and i am awear of the direction of the hobby and the failing attempts we are constructing. There has to be a better way to protect these animals from over harvest than frog farms. Good idea i guess but still full of flaws.

Please do not consider Panamanian O. pumilio farmed frogs. There is absolutely no proof of a pumilio farm in Panama. Lumping all of these real projects into one catagory that includes these pumilio is why these programs are "failing".

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Re: Oophaga pumilio punta lauren

Postby frogs are cool » Fri Oct 04, 2013 11:09 am

RichFrye wrote:No problem.
|My suggestion would be to search out all the relevant info which has been posted over the past 12 years. It is out there for everyone to see.
Most info will be found on Frognet (not ton, but some good info none the less) , Dendroboard and here on Dart Den.
Every single situation and every single locale and every single species and every single country plays into the fact that "a WC is a WC" statement is not well thought out nor an educated statement.


I have researched the forums the last 12 years and i have read discussions yet have found nothing from the farms. So again please direct me to one source from the farm on their research and that will be good. The statment a WC frog is a WC frog is educated and well thought out even if you do not see it that way. To me it sounds uneducated to argue with the statment based on a bias opinion.
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Re: Oophaga pumilio punta lauren

Postby Rusty_Shackleford » Fri Oct 04, 2013 11:19 am

A WC frog is a WC frog, a FR frog is a FR frog, except for Panama where a FR frog is really a WC frog.
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Re: Oophaga pumilio punta lauren

Postby cbreon » Fri Oct 04, 2013 11:24 am

frogs are cool wrote:
RichFrye wrote:No problem.
|My suggestion would be to search out all the relevant info which has been posted over the past 12 years. It is out there for everyone to see.
Most info will be found on Frognet (not ton, but some good info none the less) , Dendroboard and here on Dart Den.
Every single situation and every single locale and every single species and every single country plays into the fact that "a WC is a WC" statement is not well thought out nor an educated statement.


I have researched the forums the last 12 years and i have read discussions yet have found nothing from the farms. So again please direct me to one source from the farm on their research and that will be good. The statment a WC frog is a WC frog is educated and well thought out even if you do not see it that way. To me it sounds uneducated to argue with the statment based on a bias opinion.


So you really think that WC frogs, gathered by children, with no research done regarding the health of the population is the same as a FR frog, from a sustainable harvest operation, such as Tesoros, UE, WKIRI?

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Re: Oophaga pumilio punta lauren

Postby RichFrye » Fri Oct 04, 2013 11:26 am

frogs are cool wrote:
RichFrye wrote:No problem.
|My suggestion would be to search out all the relevant info which has been posted over the past 12 years. It is out there for everyone to see.
Most info will be found on Frognet (not ton, but some good info none the less) , Dendroboard and here on Dart Den.
Every single situation and every single locale and every single species and every single country plays into the fact that "a WC is a WC" statement is not well thought out nor an educated statement.


I have researched the forums the last 12 years and i have read discussions yet have found nothing from the farms. So again please direct me to one source from the farm on their research and that will be good. The statment a WC frog is a WC frog is educated and well thought out even if you do not see it that way. To me it sounds uneducated to argue with the statment based on a bias opinion.

Chris, you have to be the only person actually reading these forums who does not know where to start looking for the info you are asking us to give you. How is that possible?
When I get some time I will start plugging in terms like "frog farm" and "Panama farms" "Panama imports" and key words like those. Then I will post them here for you. Scratch that, you start plugging in the key words , get caught up and then we will discuss.
I would guess there are hundreds of posts relating to this topic. After 12 years you should know who has good info and who is blowing smoke.
Now, if you are looking for studies and scientific reports from the non-existent Panama farms alone... then it is abundantly clear why you are confused. There are no papers written by the sham that is "the farms". But that does not mean there is a lack of info revolving around Panama pums exports.
Darts with parasites are analogous to mixed tanks, there are no known benefits to the frogs with either.


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Re: Oophaga pumilio punta lauren

Postby Philsuma » Fri Oct 04, 2013 11:28 am

"The statement a WC frog is a WC frog is educated and well thought out even if you do not see it that way. To me it sounds uneducated to argue with the statement based on a bias opinion".

This is just incorrect.

It may take some time, but we will get you squared away on this issue.

Any Wild Caught Frog is most definitely not just 'any wild caught frog"

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Re: Oophaga pumilio punta lauren discussion

Postby frogs are cool » Fri Oct 04, 2013 11:42 am

The confusion is coming from people thinking im saying the collecting of the frogs is the same. I dont recall ever saying that. I said a WC frog is a WC frog. Nothing about how it was collected. If you cant see taking a frog from the wild is causing harm than thats another thread. If its collected from Farm or a child its still being collected. Again the research i have done shows a lot of talk from he said she said about the subject but i want to see the research myself from these farms to back what they are spilling. Im not one to follow a crowd i want to see the proof.
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Re: Oophaga pumilio punta lauren discussion

Postby Philsuma » Fri Oct 04, 2013 11:48 am

ok...'demanding proof' ? I totally follow you there. I often get criticised for demanding the truth, as the pursuit of facts was my previous career in real life.

So to try and distill your entire argument here....you feel that ALL exportation efforts start out and remain the SAME unless you can see and judge any differences (proof) ?

You are sceptical of Tesoro and it's claims ?

If so, I can totally understand now. Demanding more...demanding proof is 1000% OK in life. Just try to keep an open mind and evaluate the various other people posting here. Some of them have been in the hobby a long time.

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Re: Oophaga pumilio punta lauren discussion

Postby frogs are cool » Fri Oct 04, 2013 12:09 pm

Philsuma wrote:ok...'demanding proof' ? I totally follow you there. I often get criticised for demanding the truth, as the pursuit of facts was my previous career in real life.

So to try and distill your entire argument here....you feel that ALL exportation efforts start out and remain the SAME unless you can see and judge any differences (proof) ?

You are sceptical of Tesoro and it's claims ?

If so, I can totally understand now. Demanding more...demanding proof is 1000% OK in life. Just try to keep an open mind and evaluate the various other people posting here. Some of them have been in the hobby a long time.


Yes phil. I read every post and take in what others are saying and think about their points it all affects my opinion in the end. And yes i want proof!
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Re: Oophaga pumilio punta lauren discussion

Postby Sherman » Fri Oct 04, 2013 12:22 pm

I have no proof to support Tesoros's claims.
I heard his talk at SACAS and his powerpoint presentation was filled with photos of his land and facility, including photos of the construction process and the interior of the building when it was completed and set up. Although not completely un-fake-able, this is far more than I have seen from other "farms". I do not believe that he is doing academic research, so there will be no peer reviewed papers.
I know some people going down to the facility next month, perhaps they can obtain some more usefull information/proof.


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