Oophaga pumilio punta lauren discussion

Oophaga arborea
Oophaga granulifera
Oophaga histrionica
Oophaga lehmanni
Oophaga occultator
Oophaga pumilio
Oophaga speciosa
Oophaga sylvatica
Oophaga vicentei
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RichFrye
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Re: Oophaga pumilio punta lauren

Postby RichFrye » Wed Oct 02, 2013 10:30 pm

KGB wrote:
RichFrye wrote:
KGB wrote:oh geez here we go...

Insightful.
How are those Ferrell frogs working for ya again?


really dude? grow up. how are your ferrell frogs? or any elses in the hobby for that matter.

Yes, really dude.
You are part of the problem, and after all the warnings, you still are.
Dude.
Darts with parasites are analogous to mixed tanks, there are no known benefits to the frogs with either.


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Re: Oophaga pumilio punta lauren

Postby hoppityBoppity11 » Wed Oct 02, 2013 10:37 pm

And yet another great and informative thread displaying a new and beautiful morph....trolled and sabotaged! Back to lurking it is. So concerned about wild populations, smugglers etc etc, when the problem truly is one person whom ive been following for a year plus. Friggin grinch!

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Re: Oophaga pumilio punta lauren

Postby RichFrye » Wed Oct 02, 2013 10:48 pm

hoppityBoppity11 wrote:And yet another great and informative thread displaying a new and beautiful morph....trolled and sabotaged! Back to lurking it is. So concerned about wild populations, smugglers etc etc, when the problem truly is one person whom ive been following foe a year plus. Friggin grinch!

Welcome , and thanks for your contribition of reading over the years.
Darts with parasites are analogous to mixed tanks, there are no known benefits to the frogs with either.


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Re: Oophaga pumilio punta lauren

Postby Philsuma » Wed Oct 02, 2013 11:01 pm

In situ breeding projects in native countries producing F1 animals is the Holy Grail and what we are after.

SUSTAINABLE harvest is nowhere near as good, especially since no one can get the end-all data to tell us just what is truly sustainable or not. We can speculate and try hard for this and this term/issue is where the fault lines of most of the hobby lies.

Let's keep things civil here folks...

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Re: Oophaga pumilio punta lauren

Postby RichFrye » Wed Oct 02, 2013 11:06 pm

There are a few of us who are slightly jaded to the "new" and shiny. We have seen it and dealt with the bad information. We have answered emails and PMs and the flood of ' trust is on this locale data for this totally new pumilo, because this time we are not bullshitting you..."
Others keep buying from Sickley, directly or other-wise.
Darts with parasites are analogous to mixed tanks, there are no known benefits to the frogs with either.


If tone is more important to you than content, you are at the wrong place.

My new email address is rich.frye@icloud.com and new phone number is 773 577 3476

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Re: Oophaga pumilio punta lauren

Postby hoppityBoppity11 » Wed Oct 02, 2013 11:11 pm

Philsuma wrote:In situ breeding projects in native countries producing F1 animals is the Holy Grail and what we are after.

SUSTAINABLE harvest is nowhere near as good, especially since no one can get the end-all data to tell us just what is truly sustainable or not. We can speculate and try hard for this and this term/issue is where the fault lines of most of the hobby lies.

Let's keep things civil here folks...

Well said. Atm....theyre throwing us lemons and were managing to make lemonade from what we get! If i could go down and conduct an extensve research then I would, but who am I kidding? Not gonna happen. So theres not much o can do but to just be satisfied with what we have and make the most of it with them.

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Re: Oophaga pumilio punta lauren

Postby RichFrye » Wed Oct 02, 2013 11:13 pm

hoppityBoppity11 wrote:
Philsuma wrote:In situ breeding projects in native countries producing F1 animals is the Holy Grail and what we are after.

SUSTAINABLE harvest is nowhere near as good, especially since no one can get the end-all data to tell us just what is truly sustainable or not. We can speculate and try hard for this and this term/issue is where the fault lines of most of the hobby lies.

Let's keep things civil here folks...

Well said. Atm....theyre throwing us lemons and were managing to make lemonade from what we get! If i could go down and conduct an extensve research then I would, but who am I kidding? Not gonna happen. So theres not much o can do but to just be satisfied with what we have and make the most of it with them.

Simply, read more.
Darts with parasites are analogous to mixed tanks, there are no known benefits to the frogs with either.


If tone is more important to you than content, you are at the wrong place.

My new email address is rich.frye@icloud.com and new phone number is 773 577 3476

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Re: Oophaga pumilio punta lauren

Postby hoppityBoppity11 » Wed Oct 02, 2013 11:17 pm

RichFrye wrote:There are a few of us who are slightly jaded to the "new" and shiny. We have seen it and dealt with the bad information. We have answered emails and PMs and the flood of ' trust is on this locale data for this totally new pumilo, because this time we are not bullshitting you..."
Others keep buying from Sickley, directly or other-wise.

But geez o golly!!! Its much simpler than you make this out to be! To avoid further complications just dont worry about what comes in, who buys what, what is really what and just worry about your frogs and know deep inside that you are giving the best info with your frogs! And please just let those of us who truly enjoy these frogs and want to do the best we can with them as they are already here and not much we can do about it.

"Sickley?" Sounds more like a personal vandetta to me.

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Re: Oophaga pumilio punta lauren

Postby RichFrye » Wed Oct 02, 2013 11:49 pm

hoppityBoppity11 wrote:
RichFrye wrote:There are a few of us who are slightly jaded to the "new" and shiny. We have seen it and dealt with the bad information. We have answered emails and PMs and the flood of ' trust is on this locale data for this totally new pumilo, because this time we are not bullshitting you..."
Others keep buying from Sickley, directly or other-wise.

But geez o golly!!! Its much simpler than you make this out to be! To avoid further complications just dont worry about what comes in, who buys what, what is really what and just worry about your frogs and know deep inside that you are giving the best info with your frogs! And please just let those of us who truly enjoy these frogs and want to do the best we can with them as they are already here and not much we can do about it.

"Sickley?" Sounds more like a personal vandetta to me.

Once again, I thank you for your wealth of knowledge and advise.
Darts with parasites are analogous to mixed tanks, there are no known benefits to the frogs with either.


If tone is more important to you than content, you are at the wrong place.

My new email address is rich.frye@icloud.com and new phone number is 773 577 3476

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Re: Oophaga pumilio punta lauren

Postby Rusty_Shackleford » Thu Oct 03, 2013 12:04 am

hoppityBoppity11 wrote:
RichFrye wrote:There are a few of us who are slightly jaded to the "new" and shiny. We have seen it and dealt with the bad information. We have answered emails and PMs and the flood of ' trust is on this locale data for this totally new pumilo, because this time we are not bullshitting you..."
Others keep buying from Sickley, directly or other-wise.

But geez o golly!!! Its much simpler than you make this out to be! To avoid further complications just dont worry about what comes in, who buys what, what is really what and just worry about your frogs and know deep inside that you are giving the best info with your frogs! And please just let those of us who truly enjoy these frogs and want to do the best we can with them as they are already here and not much we can do about it.

"Sickley?" Sounds more like a personal vandetta to me.


Sounds like a typical snake keeper. "Eh, just cross 'em and make something new we can sell for big bucks"
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Re: Oophaga pumilio punta lauren

Postby hoppityBoppity11 » Thu Oct 03, 2013 12:26 am

Rusty_Shackleford wrote:
hoppityBoppity11 wrote:
RichFrye wrote:There are a few of us who are slightly jaded to the "new" and shiny. We have seen it and dealt with the bad information. We have answered emails and PMs and the flood of ' trust is on this locale data for this totally new pumilo, because this time we are not bullshitting you..."
Others keep buying from Sickley, directly or other-wise.

But geez o golly!!! Its much simpler than you make this out to be! To avoid further complications just dont worry about what comes in, who buys what, what is really what and just worry about your frogs and know deep inside that you are giving the best info with your frogs! And please just let those of us who truly enjoy these frogs and want to do the best we can with them as they are already here and not much we can do about it.

"Sickley?" Sounds more like a personal vandetta to me.


Sounds like a typical snake keeper. "Eh, just cross 'em and make something new we can sell for big bucks"

Yea. We shall wait and see huh? ; )

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Re: Oophaga pumilio punta lauren

Postby RichFrye » Thu Oct 03, 2013 1:20 am

Who do you think will win/wait this one out?
Darts with parasites are analogous to mixed tanks, there are no known benefits to the frogs with either.


If tone is more important to you than content, you are at the wrong place.

My new email address is rich.frye@icloud.com and new phone number is 773 577 3476

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Re: Oophaga pumilio punta lauren

Postby cbreon » Thu Oct 03, 2013 8:55 am

hoppityBoppity11 wrote: Is the population taking a hit with these imports? Maybe...maybe not. Who knows. Unless youre willing to move to panama to conduct an extensive research on their population and return here and prove to us indeed theyre taking a great hit, Id suggest you let those of us who are happy with what we have and have the privilage to work with and let us enjoy them!

If you truly are concerned with the well being of our planet, how about you pack up and fly over to syria to help some unfortunate whom have been harmed horribly and just let this"hobby" be what it is to many of us who work,raise kids and deal with everyday stress/life...a hobby! My 15minute escape.


I'd have to disagree with your point of view. This mentality has resulted in several species world-wide being pushed to the brink of extinction. The fact is Panama isn't following the proper protocols in determining the sustainability of these populations and that is discouraging. Couple that with the faux-farms and it really paints a grim picture. Why would they need to lie about frog farms if this was being done responsibly?

I understand this might be "your escape" and that you enjoy keeping these beautfiul frogs, but pretending like the collection of these animals, might, just might, be done responsibly so you can feel better about having bought some is not based in reality. I have some WC pumilio pairs that are a few years old, so I'm not innocent here, but please recognize whats going on and consider it with your next purchase.

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Re: Oophaga pumilio punta lauren

Postby cbreon » Thu Oct 03, 2013 9:45 am

TonyI25 wrote:Weren't all the types of frogs out in the hobby field wild caught at one point? It has to start somewhere. I think we are helping the population by them breeding in captivity. The animals don't have to worry about deforestation, predators, any kind of threat besides hobbyist not taking adequate care of the animal.


Tony, most of us aren't concerned with small harvest of a handful of pumilio pairs from the wild, we are concerened when 10,000 pumilio are taken from a country in the span of just a few years, with absolutely no regard for the sustainability or health of the population they are being taken from.

The idea that CB pumilio are helping wild populations is unfounded. The idea of re-releasing CB frogs to reinvigorate or restore the health of the wild population has been almost entirely ineffective over the years. CB frogs may take some pressure of the collecting of wild populations, but year after year we see large numbers of the same pumilio imported, so it would seem that this isn't really having that effect with pumilio.

True, frogs will likely live longer in captivity, assuming the owner knows what they are doing. But there are plenty of pumilio populations that have been imported in large numbers that have little to no presence in the hobby. This leads many of us to believe that often times people buy these frogs and don't keep them alive.

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Re: Oophaga pumilio punta lauren

Postby frogs are cool » Thu Oct 03, 2013 11:03 am

RichFrye wrote:There are a few of us who are slightly jaded to the "new" and shiny. We have seen it and dealt with the bad information. We have answered emails and PMs and the flood of ' trust is on this locale data for this totally new pumilo, because this time we are not bullshitting you..."
Others keep buying from Sickley, directly or other-wise.

Rich you sell frogs that only you have legal documentation for , who is buying those frogs at that rediculous high price? People that are into "New" bright and shiny. In 12 years this is my first wc frog as well as my first strickly import collected frog. I buy frogs that i like not because its "new". I do not care about local of my frogs they will never be reintroduced. A cobalt and cobalt will produce a cobalt no matter the local. I do not see any difference in an Oophaga. To stop the problem with over collecting its simple stop the import of frogs and stop releasing wild collected frogs for research to the public, place them back in the wild after the testing or in a zoo or aquarium. But people want what they dont have. They spoil the riches they have today by wanting what they do not have. Instead of realizing that what they have today was something they did not have at one time. Like everything its all about the money. Enjoy your frogs people if you have a problem with imported wc frogs stop buying them. I see no difference in a wc frog or a "Farm raised" frog they are both taking frogs from the wild to fund their projects. My opinion is always subject to change with new information.
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Re: Oophaga pumilio punta lauren

Postby RichFrye » Thu Oct 03, 2013 11:19 am

frogs are cool wrote:
RichFrye wrote:There are a few of us who are slightly jaded to the "new" and shiny. We have seen it and dealt with the bad information. We have answered emails and PMs and the flood of ' trust is on this locale data for this totally new pumilo, because this time we are not bullshitting you..."
Others keep buying from Sickley, directly or other-wise.


Rich you sell frogs that only you have legal documentation for ,
who is buying those frogs at that rediculous high price?


No, it's been made public and ANYONE can read the documentation of the legality of my frogs.
Rediculous pricing??? Subjective, and ...prove it. I think the last pricing I made public was $700 for a proven trio of CB legal Blue Jeans...yeah, CRAZY-rediculous...
frogs are cool wrote:People that are into "New" bright and shiny. In 12 years this is my first wc frog as well as my first strickly import collected frog. I buy frogs that i like not because its "new". I do not care about local of my frogs they will never be reintroduced. Acobalt and cobalt will produce a cobalt no matter the local. I do not see any difference in an Oophaga. To stop the problem with over collecting its simple stop the import of frogs and stop releasing wild collected frogs for research to the public, place them back in the wild after the testing or in a zoo or aquarium. But people want what they dont have. They spoil the riches they have today by wanting what they do not have. Instead of realizing that what they have today was something they did not have at one time. Like everything its all about the money. Enjoy your frogs people if you have a problem with imported wc frogs stop buying them. I see no difference in a wc frog or a "Farm raised" frog they are both taking frogs from the wild to fund their projects. My opinion is always subject to change with new information.

[/quote]
I would hope that in 12 years' time one would have a better grasp on the hobby and also not need to email ME with a bunch of questions about frogs you plan on buying CHEAP from Sickley...
$ seems to be the driving factor for some, as always, and knowledge falls by the way side.
Congrats and enjoy your "new" imports. Pretty frogs
Darts with parasites are analogous to mixed tanks, there are no known benefits to the frogs with either.


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Re: Oophaga pumilio punta lauren

Postby frogs are cool » Thu Oct 03, 2013 11:49 am

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I can post the email if you would like.(Excluding email info) because it was asking you if you were working with that morph. A friend said you were working with popa and the email was asking if you had some available. I do my research before buying. WC Strickly was not my first option, you were! Go to the best to get the best and you are the person i think about when i think Oophaga. Take it as a compliment. Although i said i thought you were high in pricing it didnt deture me from wanting to buy your frogs.
Your correct the price of a frog is what someone will pay im sorry i said your expensive in your pricing its just my opinion and nothing more.
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Re: Oophaga pumilio punta lauren

Postby randommind » Thu Oct 03, 2013 12:07 pm

cbreon wrote:
hoppityBoppity11 wrote: Is the population taking a hit with these imports? Maybe...maybe not. Who knows. Unless youre willing to move to panama to conduct an extensive research on their population and return here and prove to us indeed theyre taking a great hit, Id suggest you let those of us who are happy with what we have and have the privilage to work with and let us enjoy them!



I'd have to disagree with your point of view. This mentality has resulted in several species world-wide being pushed to the brink of extinction. The fact is Panama isn't following the proper protocols in determining the sustainability of these populations and that is discouraging. Couple that with the faux-farms and it really paints a grim picture. Why would they need to lie about frog farms if this was being done responsibly?




In support of the above:

"I have been to a number of these populations through the years since 2007. One of them I have almost always gone to is the Bastimentos Cemetery population. This is a population that was very well studied by researchers. In fact, in one of the years I was working on them, we found a number of frogs that were marked (toes had been clipped). This is somewhat understandable because this population and the Solarte population are probably the easiest to get to of the islands. The other populations require a little more knowledge of where to look and bigger boats.

Bastimentos Cemetery is also one of the most common morphs in the hobby. If you want to start off with pumilio, Bastimentos are often suggested as good beginner pumilio. They're big, active, bold, and colorful. Overall, good frogs to have. I'm afraid that our demand for them may be taking its toll, in addition to other factors affecting the frogs. Since 2007, I have gone to the same locale a number of times, and there have been fewer and fewer frogs. I think that this is in part collection, but also habitat destruction. The understory has been gradually disappearing in this area. This year was the worst I've ever seen it. I went there with about 6 students, and combined, I don't think we found more than 6 frogs after an hour of searching. I will grant that this, also, could be due to the relatively dry weather here, but it is blatantly apparent that the population is in decline.

Given that this population is so iconic, this is shocking and disappointing. As a hobby, if we don't do something, and do something immediately, this population may not be around for much longer. Pumilio can be sustainably harvested, but I think that the ease of access to this population in particular has resulted in decline.

So, if you have Bastimentos frogs, breed them like there's no tomorrow. If you want Bastimentos frogs, do not, I repeat, do not get anything other than captive bred. Even farm raised, I wouldn't trust. If the frog didn't hatch out in the U.S. or Europe, I would not touch it. I'm afraid, at this rate, this population may disappear quickly."


- J.P. Lawrence PhD Student / Oophaga pumilio Researcher

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Re: Oophaga pumilio punta lauren

Postby RichFrye » Thu Oct 03, 2013 12:18 pm

frogs are cool wrote:--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I can post the email if you would like.(Excluding email info) because it was asking you if you were working with that morph. A friend said you were working with popa and the email was asking if you had some available. I do my research before buying. WC Strickly was not my first option, you were! Go to the best to get the best and you are the person i think about when i think Oophaga. Take it as a compliment. Although i said i thought you were high in pricing it didnt deture me from wanting to buy your frogs.
Your correct the price of a frog is what someone will pay im sorry i said your expensive in your pricing its just my opinion and nothing more.

Exactly what are you basing your opinion of my supposed high prices?
Yes, compared to pums grabbed off any plot of land in Panama my captive bred pedigreed frogs are more costly.
Darts with parasites are analogous to mixed tanks, there are no known benefits to the frogs with either.


If tone is more important to you than content, you are at the wrong place.

My new email address is rich.frye@icloud.com and new phone number is 773 577 3476

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Re: Oophaga pumilio punta lauren

Postby KGB » Thu Oct 03, 2013 12:22 pm

Exactly what are you basing your opinion of my supposed high prices?
Yes, compared to pums grabbed off any plot of land in Panama my captive bred pedigreed frogs are more costly.


Way to sound like more of a snob than you already are. Hey im going to swing over to your place and we can talk about how im a problem in the hobby since you wont respond to my pm's.


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