Historic Oophaga lineages?

Oophaga arborea
Oophaga granulifera
Oophaga histrionica
Oophaga lehmanni
Oophaga occultator
Oophaga pumilio
Oophaga speciosa
Oophaga sylvatica
Oophaga vicentei
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Philsuma
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Re: Historic Oophaga lineages?

Postby Philsuma » Thu Sep 17, 2015 5:34 pm

It all comes down to percentages. I don't care how great Robb M and Eric M and Robert N were. The percentages of success MUST have been lower back then. Must have been. We have 3-4 guys with huge obligate success for every one of those mentioned above, so the success today is higher today. Percentages.

No one, not even Chris Sherman is saying that NO old lines survived. We are only saying the number of 1990's surviours has GOT to be small.

Example

1990's

1,000 large obligates imported - 891 dead, 109 produced some progeny

2000's

1,000 large obligates imported - 566 dead, 434 produced some progeny

percentage example ^^^

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Re: Historic Oophaga lineages?

Postby Sherman » Thu Sep 17, 2015 6:42 pm

goods wrote:Why are you fairly certain that there was less variety than there are today?


goods wrote:There are certain locales that have come in as a whole after the legal importations of these old lines,


Not trying to be crass here, but did you not answer your own question?
I can not do any better myself.

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Re: Historic Oophaga lineages?

Postby Sherman » Thu Sep 17, 2015 7:11 pm

Sherman wrote:I suspect some of these have only recently been bred in the 90s. :D


Well, maybe I already did.

I am making no accusations and would certainly like to keep this thread light. It is a call out for closeted information. As we are seeing more and more public postings, both classified and simple "look at my frog" threads, the utility of this information becoming public is becoming increasingly obvious. People make these posts then seemingly get upset that people ask questions when there is very little information publicly available.

goods wrote:I'm also very well aware of extremely innovative people who successfully kept and bred dart frogs in the US in the 80s. These same people (one was mentioned) had success with those 90s large obligates and kept diverse selections of them.


Not all people, myself included, have this information. (I believe you, by the way.) I'm just trying to have the conversation.

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Re: Historic Oophaga lineages?

Postby Coqui » Thu Sep 17, 2015 8:14 pm

I am wondering if crickets were the norm in feeding these frogs in the 90's, then I would think the crickets were gut loaded. When I kept lizards in the 90's it was common practice to gut load the crickets. This procedure would have been beneficial to the frogs health.

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Re: Historic Oophaga lineages?

Postby BcsTx » Thu Sep 17, 2015 10:20 pm

Coqui wrote:I am wondering if crickets were the norm in feeding these frogs in the 90's, then I would think the crickets were gut loaded. When I kept lizards in the 90's it was common practice to gut load the crickets. This procedure would have been beneficial to the frogs health.


Not to derail but chuckled over your statement, maybe Mark's MJ theory...

Sherman no offense, with no lineage info and yes the large obligates are more transparent now, which is a good thing... plus Tesores imports. Nice frogs, do I want to throw 3-5 K for unsexed or even sexed frogs?
Nope...
My .02 is wait, watch and deal with those that have been in the hobby a while with references.
-Beth

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Re: Historic Oophaga lineages?

Postby Sherman » Thu Sep 17, 2015 10:46 pm

Coqui, not the crickets I was expecting. :)

Beth,
I do not understand what you are saying.

I am not contemplating a purchase of any of these frogs.
As for Tesoros de Colombia, trying to straighten out these other lines is against my normal "promote the crap out of them" tendencies. It would be better for their sales if I just cast further doubt on the grey area animals and claimed that theirs are the only 100% legit animals available. I'm trying to be fair. I believe that people have some good frogs and I am trying to help them clear the air.

I guess I never really thought this would be productive, but I tried.

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Re: Historic Oophaga lineages?

Postby Philsuma » Thu Sep 17, 2015 11:22 pm

Coqui wrote:I am wondering if crickets were the norm in feeding these frogs in the 90's, then I would think the crickets were gut loaded. When I kept lizards in the 90's it was common practice to gut load the crickets. This procedure would have been beneficial to the frogs health.


Crickets are not a good food source for Oophaga. I don't think even large terriblis should be given them. The list of bad things is long - possible impaction to coccidia among others.

Gut loading is decent on some levels, but it pales in comparison to the engineered dusting supplements of today.

Crickets are not a normal prey item for dart frogs. In the wild they eat TINY insects - a lot of ants and mites. Very small stuff, that's why fruit flies are such a good staple food for captive breeding. They best approximate the small size and consistency of what they would normally eat in the wild.

Crickets contributed to the death of a ton of those 1990's oophaga, IMO. A very bad food source for dart frogs.

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Re: Historic Oophaga lineages?

Postby Coqui » Fri Sep 18, 2015 5:42 am

Sherman, I would not say it wasn't productive. Any Information that comes from these discussions should always be welcome.
Maybe, some forum members that have some of these frogs might have some documentation that they will share. I myself have a beautiful pair of Red Heads that were acquired by a well respected forum member, unfortunately I do not have any documentation to share.

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Re: Historic Oophaga lineages?

Postby Sherman » Fri Sep 18, 2015 9:18 am

Coqui wrote: I myself have a beautiful pair of Red Heads that were acquired by a well respected forum member, unfortunately I do not have any documentation to share.


Everyone's old line frogs come from anonymous (but good, so trust me and don't ask) sources.

I still hold hope that this thread will produce some good information, but that would take some of those old timers to post their experiences here. I do not see that happening. They have withdrawn from the forums long ago and I don't think that my request will be enough to coax a response.

Happy frogging,

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Re: Historic Oophaga lineages?

Postby Philsuma » Fri Sep 18, 2015 11:42 am

I see what you are trying to do Chris - promoting Tesoros frogs by trying to elevate them above the others.

It won't work.

Take another look at my 'Jack the Ripper' thread. Then look at that 'rare amphibian' classifieds stuff. Nobody cares. They only want the newest, shiniest, rare-est, what-ever-you-don't have-est frogs around. They don't care where they came from.

So by trying to 'do some good' and get some facts and understand how things work....you piss people off.

As soon as you ask a question, its 'he's stirring shit up' !! and suddenly you are a bad person.

Stay the course. Follow your heart. Do what you feel is right. Don't worry about the flak from naysayers and pissed off people because if they are such people, they weren't truly your friends anyway.

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Re: Historic Oophaga lineages?

Postby Philsuma » Fri Sep 18, 2015 2:31 pm

More thoughts:

There are reasons why the 'old heads' will not be forthcoming about their large obligate info:

1. They do not want to divulge their sources by adding the lineage name. This does two things. It doesn't allow for tons of people to see the lineage name and then start scouring the interwbz for that persons contact info to bug them about getting some.

It also doesn't allow for those people to 'bump' in line and offer big cash for frogs that they may not be able to handle and will just end up killing them.

2. Announcing a ton of the rare large obligate info is scary to most people. If I had a collection of 50 vivs , all with rare stuff , the last thing I would want to do is spread that info around. Burglary is a serious concern amongst a lot of people.

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Re: Historic Oophaga lineages?

Postby Philsuma » Fri Sep 18, 2015 2:33 pm

So to summarize. There IS a whole different set of 'rules' and social aspects inherent with keeping the rare-er stuff.

Different part of the hobby. Different guidelines IMO.

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Re: Historic Oophaga lineages?

Postby Sherman » Fri Sep 18, 2015 4:04 pm

Philsuma wrote:I see what you are trying to do Chris - promoting Tesoros frogs by trying to elevate them above the others.

smh
Phil, you are wrong.
If you do not see the sincerity in this, you don't know me very well.

They (Tesoros, WIKIRI, UE and the like) do not need me to elevate them. This has been an attempt to publicly legitimize other good frogs that could use a lift out of the fog. Period.

I accept that attempting this was quite naive. Your other comments make sense.

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Re: Historic Oophaga lineages?

Postby markpulawski » Mon Sep 28, 2015 1:00 pm

bet you could count surviving lines from the 90's of these frogs on one hand (maybe 2 fingers), anyone lucky enough to get healthy frogs to start with coupled with proper husbandry (for back then), reproduction was low, viability was poor, I am surprised that the 2 or 3 I think I know of are still around. I think the vast majority of these old school frogs come from early to mid 2000 imports. I could be wrong but a surprising number of animals have showed between probably '02 and '12 or so, most pretty much unannounced and I speculate here very few with CITES documents.
I would submit buying legal imports is head and shoulders the way to go however if frogs are here and being bred by the ones that have them going, more power to them providing CB rare animals. I wouldn't turn down 3 or 4 young CB Lita. Are there different rules for those that keep them, outside of secrecy no....and yea I used to know the hand shake but not any more :)

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Re: Historic Oophaga lineages?

Postby Sirjohn » Fri Oct 09, 2015 5:57 pm

Philsuma wrote:It certainly looks like John from NYC is breeding two different populations of redheads. Good/bad or indifferent aside...the patterns are so different that it does seem that way, to me at least.


I have separated the animals into 2 separate groups to avoid mixing... In fact I am trying to keep the lines as clean as possible... From my understanding, the Red Heads are quite variable... I have seen many red head babies from others who vary greatly in both color and markings, and there is no local offered with frogs that are already here, in fact the origins are hard if not impossible to trace.....

Of the 2 groups I have, one group is almost identical in markings... The other group varies in color, which is why I separated them... Since they were unsexed, I wanted to see their sex ratio, as we know Histo run male heavy which is the case with my groups as well.. I have more males than females...

I have not and will not mix them with frogs already here in the hobby (or eachother) and I made a point to say that to you Phil when you were here and I saw you... I feel I have them housed well, and husbandry is perfect species specific.. I have clutches from the second group already and have been closely watching the first group... We will see, but I want the lines clean or as clean as humanly possible for the sake of the hobby and the future... To clarify...

I wonder if the animals from the 90's were the ones being bred, wouldn't they be inbred or heavily line bred at this point? Or if frogs came in afterwards wouldn't they have been smuggled and how would you be able to tell the difference or the local? I have seen many red heads in the hobby that look similar... The group I have has diversity.. Its a conversation I will have with Ivan, at some point, but Ivan, as a conservationist I don't think would mix lines for a sale as profit is certainly not his motivation. I can tell you, that I see differences in the frogs.. Size for example... These are a little larger than what is here already... Not a huge difference but noticeable...Their color/markings are more robust is the other difference.. I am very curious to see how the offspring will look... In time I will know as they have been laying clutches...

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Re: Historic Oophaga lineages?

Postby Philsuma » Sat Oct 10, 2015 12:04 pm

Great info John, thanks for posting ! Glad you are having luck with them, and yes, that does clear things up. I was going off of those pics on your FB page as well as my memory of what those Tesoros red heads looked like. Very good.

As far as breeding depression of the '90's frogs ? Nah. They are probably managed better than most of the 'visible' or common stuff we have now like Tincs ect, due to the high demand network for rare obligates. I could totally see several 90's lines surviving with some small injections of new blood from the E.U (Germany) ect. I think the few old head hobbyists that have those 1990's red heads should be commended for keeping them in the hobby.

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Re: Historic Oophaga lineages?

Postby Stu&Shaz » Mon Oct 12, 2015 4:47 pm

John Phil Chris the thoughts raised here are of great relevence to me,you all know I keep red heads my stock comes from the dendroworks line. I have bill of sale and know and trust the guy whom helps my country's native phibs,but I couldn't give you something to trace back to the nineties,could anyone?
My second of interest is simply I've known and no secret was made that these redheads are very inbred. I've always hoped that one day I might be able to afford an outcross from Ivan's project,but it seems that this might be a diservice to the hobby which concerns me. I've used the word custodian before many times. I feel I care for one generation of something bigger a small part in the lineage of that particular morph/line/species...whatever. So I'd like your thoughts and advice or simple opinions please.

Look I have no reason in lack of vigour or other wise,to want an out cross, jees a week ago the first of the generation we have bred came of age .My kids are breeding (sorry I'm over the bloody moon) . My motives are simply trying to do one's best for da froshe,that's it ,that is my agenda ha and then try and impliment that statement.

As far as I know we have two red head populations,is there scope for there to be more "morphs" out there. This is tricky obviously if someone does have knowledge of a pop,I don't want you to answer that anyway,but if it is know that there are more than the small redhead and large ie possibly several isolated morphs of small redhead,I need that simple bit of info.

I'd really appreciate your thoughts here please,forgive me being a bit dumb here John I think I've understood your post,but clarity is important to me on this one. We might speak the same language ,many many's a time I don't completely comprehend a post statside,and I'm simply guilty as charged on the comprehension stakes

I'd like to pass the best I can on to the next custodian plus I've never want to devalue Tesoros' works. Important to me this one guys !! I've been entrusted with these frogs,been incredibly fortunate to be here now looking at a time where I'll be sorted with our breeders.

Take care all

Stu

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Re: Historic Oophaga lineages?

Postby Stu&Shaz » Mon Oct 12, 2015 4:48 pm

ps if i'm slow replying please don't think ill of me I'm just runnin around like a chuck with no head tis all

Stu


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