Poll- "Frog Pedigree". How important to you ?

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How important is "Frog Pedigree" ?

Not important at all. Frogs are Frogs and nothing more.
0
No votes
I buy from "good people" only. As long as they have a good hobby reputation, any frog they sell is ok.
9
14%
I try to get a little more info. I like people who can tell me at least some history of their frogs.
53
80%
Only site specific locales for me. I need frogs that have "paperwork".
4
6%
 
Total votes: 66

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Re: Poll- "Frog Pedigree". How important to you ?

Postby Michael Lawrence » Mon Jul 18, 2011 9:21 pm

I agree and Chris I wasn't trying to get your histo war going again. Last thing we need if Fred coming back thinking hes got a backing. I do think the unknown along with who you are and how you've carried yourself in the hobby is what this boils down to. Still, I ask everyone Ive not done biz with these questions.

Michael
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Re: Poll- "Frog Pedigree". How important to you ?

Postby JimO » Tue Aug 02, 2011 11:40 am

As I've learned more about the hobby and about dart frogs in general, I've placed much more emphasis on knowing as much about the frogs' origin and breeding history. I've accepted the fact that some species/morphs have been around so long and mixed up so much that there isn't much useful information available (I'm thinking azureus, some other tinc morphs, and leucs, for example). However, this has become important enough to me that I have sold the five Leuc froglets I had and am getting some from Zach Brinks that have locale info. I've also sold some pumilio and purchased others with better data.

I don't have a lot of cash to throw around, but I'd certainly pay more for a frog for which locale data and import date were reliable.

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Re: Poll- "Frog Pedigree". How important to you ?

Postby Philsuma » Sat Nov 26, 2011 1:41 am

Site specific / Locale verifications......what percentage of frogs in the hobby fall into this catagory ?

5% ? More ? ...less ?

How much trust should we place on this ?

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Re: Poll- "Frog Pedigree". How important to you ?

Postby Philsuma » Fri Dec 02, 2011 12:31 pm

Lot of pumilio are getting thrown around...."I got these from someone, who said he got them from___ and they said they are site specific".

I'm not usually that far to the right of the locale spectrum but that stuff makes me cringe...

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Re: Poll- "Frog Pedigree". How important to you ?

Postby RanaVenenosa » Fri Dec 02, 2011 6:33 pm

Id say without a paper trail its 100% TRUST, even then, a paper trail can be forged. Best option is a "kind of" triage via TWI/ASN registration, building a name in the hobby (as quality breeder), and leveraging the knowledge base of hobbyist for history. As time goes, it will get difficult since there is a high amount of turnover of people and frogs. Today, SNDF can mean something at a basic level, but in 6-10 years, it will be difficult to say that 2011 popa vs xyz popa unless you can "Triage" as I stated above. What is more important and in our control is promoting high standards of dart husbandry by voting w out pocket books. This drum is beat all the time and should not be divorced from the discussion of Pedigree. I think how we breed frogs is as important as where they came from (if that doesn't sound to circular). In other words, to know your Imitator was from Phil Tan line has some importance, but its more important that the immediate animal your working with was properly raised and supplemented.

In other words, if you have some BJ froglets that are F4 from Frye line (exaggeration to make a point) and they are being sold by a known flipper w no regard to proper animal care, does that frog deserve the same pedigree that you would expect direct from the original breeder? I think not. Just another dimension to the complexity in this hobby.

My main point is there are many factors that come into play with no one silver bullet. At the end of the day, we are at the mercy of trusting each other.
Scott - North Dallas

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Re: Poll- "Frog Pedigree". How important to you ?

Postby Philsuma » Fri Dec 02, 2011 8:27 pm

^^ Good points Scott...in furtherance of the discussion.

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Re: Poll- "Frog Pedigree". How important to you ?

Postby Kate » Tue Dec 13, 2011 2:20 pm

I would love to see, and please excuse me if this already exists, a stickied tutorial of sorts on how to acquire well documented frogs. Maybe including what questions to ask, what documentation to expect, what that documentation should look like, etc. I admit, the first time I set out to acquire frogs with a known background, I asked for documentation and the seller said, "what documentation would you like?" I was honestly stumped. The seller had given me their word on the type of frog, import year, and importer through emails, but I didn't know what else, if anything, I should expect.

I imagine there are many other intermediate hobbyists out there who would like to be as legitimate as possible in their efforts, but feel a little lost at times. Knowledge is key.

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Re: Poll- "Frog Pedigree". How important to you ?

Postby Philsuma » Tue Dec 13, 2011 3:25 pm

Excellent post Kate. There is no "paperwork" to date, that I'm aware of for pedigrees or lineage. Even TWI can only go so far and give out numbers and tracking remarks. We, as a hobby, are still years and years away from reliable paper and photo documentation of frogs, I fear.

Like Scott said...we are truly at the mercy of our fellow hobbyists. Personally, I would only trust those hobbyists that :

1. Have been in the hobby for a while, i.e at least 5-8 years
2. Have a credible online presence - website and a lot of posting on Forums
3. Come recommended by other hobbyists - referrals from other long time hobbyists

This is why it's so important to have and attend the regional frogger meets and gatherings like Frog Day 2012 ect and on down to the smaller local ones. There, we can find and connect with the best of the hobby and gain essential recommendations and contacts to make purchasing frogs as bullet proof as possible and reward the good guy breeders and avoid the bad ones.

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Re: Poll- "Frog Pedigree". How important to you ?

Postby Philsuma » Tue Dec 13, 2011 3:27 pm

Ordering from a distributor, jobber or large dealer is going to get you a sales receipt but it's only going to say " 12 strawberry dart frogs' or "6 auratus" - both completely unhelpful for tracking or lineage.

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Re: Poll- "Frog Pedigree". How important to you ?

Postby Philsuma » Tue Dec 13, 2011 4:56 pm

Kate wrote:I would love to see, and please excuse me if this already exists, a stickied tutorial of sorts on how to acquire well documented frogs. Maybe including what questions to ask, what documentation to expect, what that documentation should look like, etc. I admit, the first time I set out to acquire frogs with a known background, I asked for documentation and the seller said, "what documentation would you like?" I was honestly stumped. The seller had given me their word on the type of frog, import year, and importer through emails, but I didn't know what else, if anything, I should expect.

I imagine there are many other intermediate hobbyists out there who would like to be as legitimate as possible in their efforts, but feel a little lost at times. Knowledge is key.


beginner-questions-and-comments-f27/where-should-i-buy-my-frogs-t4591.html

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Poll- "Frog Pedigree". How important to you ?

Postby wasatchtrops » Wed Dec 14, 2011 10:23 am

In other words, if you have some BJ froglets that are F4 from Frye line (exaggeration to make a point) and they are being sold by a known flipper w no regard to proper animal care, does that frog deserve the same pedigree that you would expect direct from the original breeder? I think not. Just another dimension to the complexity in this hobby.
I know this is just an example, but is close to my experience. I recently purchased some "frye" line frogs from another breeder. I thought I was getting a 'deal'. But I did not get the "Frye" experience. i.e. the prompt responses, the quality frogs, receiving what was paid for... My mistake, I will gladly pay 'more' for a quality frog(s) coupled with great customer service any day.

Buying from Rich also teaches you patience (waitlist). And a total disregard for the value of money.. maybe that's just me though

Gabe

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Re: Poll- "Frog Pedigree". How important to you ?

Postby Kate » Wed Dec 14, 2011 11:01 am

Philsuma wrote:
Kate wrote:I would love to see, and please excuse me if this already exists, a stickied tutorial of sorts on how to acquire well documented frogs. Maybe including what questions to ask, what documentation to expect, what that documentation should look like, etc. I admit, the first time I set out to acquire frogs with a known background, I asked for documentation and the seller said, "what documentation would you like?" I was honestly stumped. The seller had given me their word on the type of frog, import year, and importer through emails, but I didn't know what else, if anything, I should expect.

I imagine there are many other intermediate hobbyists out there who would like to be as legitimate as possible in their efforts, but feel a little lost at times. Knowledge is key.


beginner-questions-and-comments-f27/where-should-i-buy-my-frogs-t4591.html


That's definitely a nice start for someone who hasn't bought frogs before, but doesn't really touch on what I was saying.

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Re: Poll- "Frog Pedigree". How important to you ?

Postby Philsuma » Wed Dec 14, 2011 11:44 am

Kate wrote:
Philsuma wrote:
Kate wrote:I would love to see, and please excuse me if this already exists, a stickied tutorial of sorts on how to acquire well documented frogs. Maybe including what questions to ask, what documentation to expect, what that documentation should look like, etc. I admit, the first time I set out to acquire frogs with a known background, I asked for documentation and the seller said, "what documentation would you like?" I was honestly stumped. The seller had given me their word on the type of frog, import year, and importer through emails, but I didn't know what else, if anything, I should expect.

I imagine there are many other intermediate hobbyists out there who would like to be as legitimate as possible in their efforts, but feel a little lost at times. Knowledge is key.


beginner-questions-and-comments-f27/where-should-i-buy-my-frogs-t4591.html


That's definitely a nice start for someone who hasn't bought frogs before, but doesn't really touch on what I was saying.


There is no paper. No paperwork. The hobby has no system of documentation. TWI is only a starting point and a dream at this stage.

A hobbyist must rely on reputation. It's all we have. When you acquire a frog from someone, you are trusting it's lineage and the care that went into raising it, 100%. There are people, believe it or not, that will refuse to tell you where they got their frogs from. They will make excuses like - "the breeder doesn't want his name put out". Poppycock. That doesn't help anyone or the hobby and they are most likely ashamed of dealing with such an individual.

Again, there is no documentation. There is no paperwork or paper trail. There is only Reputation.

edit. Mark Pepper from Canada can provide paperwork on certain species - mostly Peruvian thumbnails. Forgot about Canada :(

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Re: Poll- "Frog Pedigree". How important to you ?

Postby Kate » Wed Dec 14, 2011 12:04 pm

That's helpful to know. I thought maybe I was being naive by simply trusting, but not receiving paperwork other than a packing slip. This is the first time I've gotten a straight answer when discussing this topic. I've loved the frogs I've had over the years, but lately I've been trying to transition from being just a frog owner to being a positive member of this hobby. It seemed like paying close attention to the background of all acquired frogs was one of the most important steps. I am very small time hobbyist, with very few frogs and lots of patience.

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Re: Poll- "Frog Pedigree". How important to you ?

Postby DKOOISTRA » Wed Dec 14, 2011 12:17 pm

There are however (and correct me if I'm wrong) instances where its not as critical. Pums are a definite, but when it comes to leucs, or orange lamasis and I'm sure others, where lineage is not a "critical factor". Other than probably where the smuggling issue gets involved, but then these are so plentiful in the hobby that I dont know why one would (smuggle in a leuc). The best thing I think a newb can do is make a contact with someone respected in the hobby and ask if there is anything to watch out for, both on lineage and the seller. The history of some of these lines can be extremely difficult to get to the bottom of. Especially for someone who doesnt even know where to begin to look. I def. have frogs where I wish I knew more, and would have bought from elsewhere had I known...case in point, my Tuss line "darklands" (blue pums). Cool frog, but a line that is probably not "viable" in the hobby as there are very few left. Most importantly, trust who your getting your frog from and dont get distracted with "emotion" or how cool it looks. Just because someone says it's Frye line (as an example), doesnt mean it is, and even though it may be, doesnt mean its been properly cared for.
Derek
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Re: Poll- "Frog Pedigree". How important to you ?

Postby Philsuma » Wed Dec 14, 2011 4:13 pm

DKOOISTRA wrote: Most importantly, trust who your getting your frog from and dont get distracted with "emotion" or how cool it looks. Just because someone says it's Frye line (as an example), doesnt mean it is, and even though it may be, doesnt mean its been properly cared for.
Derek


Word.

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Re: Poll- "Frog Pedigree". How important to you ?

Postby RichFrye » Wed Dec 14, 2011 4:56 pm

DKOOISTRA wrote: Most importantly, trust who your getting your frog from and don't get distracted with "emotion" or how cool it looks. Just because someone says it's Frye line (as an example), doesn't mean it is, and even though it may be, doesn't mean its been properly cared for.
Derek


Correct. And, most important to remember, you can start off with gold (site specific, healthy, quarantined, established, known breeding darts, ect. ect.) and turn them into shit. But you can NEVER start with shit (no site locale, unhealthy and possibly ruined no matter how you care for them AFTER you get them, not quarantined and thus not sure of health, unestablished, not a pair, ect. ect.) and turn that shit into gold. Never.

People have and do lie about my dart personal lines' info. Some are simply ignorant , but most are doing so to get a 'premium' price for shit not mine. Others have done so out of jealousy and nothing but spite.
If anyone ever has any questions feel free to email me @

richfrye@comcast.net

BTW Derek, your line of Tuss' "darklands" is lost to the hobby due to the fact that Tuss only knew the guy he got them from said they were "darklands"...back when the ONLY blue pums in the hobby were called darklands. There is not enough genetic material for them to survive. There were no names like cauchero, esperanza, or any other possible locale which should not be mixed. Tuss does not and did not have any info other than stated as darklands. He told me so personally along with his measurements of his much larger than my actual Darklands. Darts (especially pums) here with smal populations which will be lost to the hobby due to no info are in the situation because of no info, from the start. I have lots of pums which if not bred eventually, eventually with pums from their SAME KNOWN locale would be lost. This is why good specific, specific info is needed. I have more than a chance or two to add to my same locales before they are genetically lost. Others do not, have not, will not.

Get gold and keep it that way.
Darts with parasites are analogous to mixed tanks, there are no known benefits to the frogs with either.


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Re: Poll- "Frog Pedigree". How important to you ?

Postby Philsuma » Wed Dec 14, 2011 11:09 pm

Rich,

You can be proud of your frogs - not a problem.

You can slam the importers, especially those who have horrible methods, care and q-tine - Almost all deserve it.

but

Refering to frogs...animals...as "shit" is disrespectful to the animals. Rail against collection methods if you must - it's like shaking your fist at the sea and the waves, and I can see a cathartic rightiousness in some small way, but animals are not "shit".

I'm not going to delete your post here, and lets not have another battle. Let's just let your post and my post here, be it.

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Re: Poll- "Frog Pedigree". How important to you ?

Postby DKOOISTRA » Thu Dec 15, 2011 8:18 am

And here is the dilema with "shit frogs", I say that a little tongue in cheak as I enjoy them greatly, have learned a lot from them both care wise and what to look for and ask about in a purchase. To me they have had great educational value. The dilema is what to do with their offspring. I've only found 2 others that have this particular line, and havent spoken to the others in 6 months to a year. Currently I have 2 males from my original pair (both calling so I know for sure, 100% no doubt what they are). What do I do with them. Obviously they should not, can not, be mixed, nor would I ever knowingly sell them to someone who would. I also can not continue keeping their offspring, as I'd eventually be over run with them. Should they be seperated until the day die and allow the line then to "burn out"?

Im not really looking for answers to my issue, I'm just throwing it out there. People need to think about what will happen down the road. Keeping frogs is a lot longer committment than what I think many realize, and the space issues that can arrize when you have an actively breeding pair or group. When I bought these I new the line info and the individual I got them from was a respected sponsor, a stand up guy. I simply didnt know how "rare" they were. I'm perfectly content keeping what I currently have and am just throwing it out there as an example of why "pedigree" is an issue. Even if you are just starting out, first frogs, it can come back and bite you in the end.
Derek
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Re: Poll- "Frog Pedigree". How important to you ?

Postby RichFrye » Thu Dec 15, 2011 1:25 pm

DKOOISTRA wrote:And here is the dilema with "shit frogs", I say that a little tongue in cheak as I enjoy them greatly, ...
Derek



...and , I use the term "shit" for frogs that fall into many of the lowest of the low, Ninth Circle stuff;
(no site locale, unhealthy and possibly ruined no matter how you care for them AFTER you get them, not quarantined and thus not sure of health, unestablished, not a pair, ect. ect.)...[sic]
The ect. , ect. allows for even more of the negative traits or husbandry issues like hybrids, selective trait bred for not found in the hobby, and many more. People can substitute the term 'shit' for any one of many (hybrids , whoopsies, mistakes, not right, six legged, rampantly ill, horribly diseased, on death's door, on and on)
The term 'shit' is my starting point on the lowest end and my term 'gold' for the highest. No, there's no barometer or yardstick to wave over a frog and dub it 'platinum' or 'diarrhea'. But there is also no chance that all frogs are created equal , and as you mentioned, just because a frog originates from any one line , no matter how solid or gold, it can be messed up by improper husbandry/ management down the line.

If anyone thinks their frogs are gold, they have just as much right to think so as I do. The ability to back up the thoughts should always be at the forefront though.


Derek,
The main issue , as you know, with your Tuss line blue pums is the undisputed fact that with only a few founder frogs that line is lost. If Tuss had a larger ( by about 15 pairs or so) founding group you'd be able to network to keep his line in the hobby. With no specific site locale data and low founding stock it is not a question of what you can do personally. There is simply not enough material for the frogs to survive more than 'X' amount of generations before new blood needs to be introduced. That new blood is impossible to add .
Not calling your personal frogs shit, BTW, just eventually lost to the hobby, which we agree upon. How important that is to each and every dart frogger differs.
And you are 100% dead on when you say people need to think and plan for down the road.
Darts with parasites are analogous to mixed tanks, there are no known benefits to the frogs with either.


If tone is more important to you than content, you are at the wrong place.

My new email address is rich.frye@icloud.com and new phone number is 773 577 3476


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