Poll- "Frog Pedigree". How important to you ?

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How important is "Frog Pedigree" ?

Not important at all. Frogs are Frogs and nothing more.
0
No votes
I buy from "good people" only. As long as they have a good hobby reputation, any frog they sell is ok.
9
14%
I try to get a little more info. I like people who can tell me at least some history of their frogs.
53
80%
Only site specific locales for me. I need frogs that have "paperwork".
4
6%
 
Total votes: 66

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Philsuma
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Poll- "Frog Pedigree". How important to you ?

Postby Philsuma » Fri Mar 18, 2011 10:41 am

What value do you place on exactly where and who you got your frogs from ?

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Re: Poll- "Frog Pedigree". How important to you ?

Postby Michael Lawrence » Fri Mar 18, 2011 12:29 pm

Well I don't know of anyone who has only Site Specific frogs. And as for the third option of saying some of the history I guess Id be in the 3.5 category because the ones that are not site specific I can at least tell you what line, where they come from, when they were imported and even the locale region for many as far as the retics and others Ive had go.

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Re: Poll- "Frog Pedigree". How important to you ?

Postby Philsuma » Fri Mar 18, 2011 2:10 pm

Poison Beauties wrote:Well I don't know of anyone who has only Site Specific frogs.
Michael


Rich Frye regularly advertises Site Specific pumilio, doesn't he ?

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Re: Poll- "Frog Pedigree". How important to you ?

Postby Michael Lawrence » Fri Mar 18, 2011 2:27 pm

Yes he does and he has more site specific frogs than anyone else I know of but he's got Tincs and Ranitomeya as well. Those all are not site specific. Maybe one day people will......

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Re: Poll- "Frog Pedigree". How important to you ?

Postby D3monic » Fri Mar 18, 2011 5:53 pm

I would like to be in the 4 but realistically I am a 3 Knowing lineage is rather important to me. Not only for my benefit but anyone that purchases frogs from me as well. If I could get all site specif frogs I sure as hell would though. I am not all that interested in Pumilio and the only frogs that I got exact location data (within 50 yards or so) are Rich's Cristobals.
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Re: Poll- "Frog Pedigree". How important to you ?

Postby Philsuma » Tue Apr 05, 2011 12:42 am

GPS Locale info is "The Dream" and I think a couple importers are actually working towards it as we speak.

That said, currently, I doubt that site specific dart Frogs account for more than 5-10% of the animals in the U.S Hobby.

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Re: Poll- "Frog Pedigree". How important to you ?

Postby Kerickson978 » Fri Apr 22, 2011 8:19 pm

I would honestly be surprised if it was that high of a percentage even
If we knew what it was we were doing, it would not be called research, would it? - Albert Einstein
1.2.0 pumilio (drago colon) 1.1.0 pumilio (Escudo) 0.0.4 M. stelzneri 0.0.2 D. tinc (patricia) 0.1.0 D leucomelas
-Keith

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Re: Poll- "Frog Pedigree". How important to you ?

Postby RichFrye » Mon Apr 25, 2011 3:48 pm

One thing people rarely bring up is that "site specific" is more important the more polymorphic and/or widespread the species.
If there's only one species in one breeding locale...we don't give two hoots about exact locale.
People don't realize we are not asking for locale to go pick these up, we are asking for breeding management purposes.
Many of the general locales and names placed on the well established darts in our U.S. hobby are fine for breeding management. Best guesses are not however.
Darts with parasites are analogous to mixed tanks, there are no known benefits to the frogs with either.


If tone is more important to you than content, you are at the wrong place.

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Re: Poll- "Frog Pedigree". How important to you ?

Postby Tony » Mon Apr 25, 2011 4:01 pm

RichFrye wrote:Many of the general locales and names placed on the well established darts in our U.S. hobby are fine for breeding management.


Where do you draw the line? You are very outspoken about site-specific pumilio, and for good reason, but isn't the info we have for at least some of the non site-specific morphs good enough to meet that criterion? I'll use El Dorado as an example, they didn't come in with GPS data, but they are known to represent a true population that is essentially the Panamanian side of the BriBri morph's range. Isn't that enough to tell us that El Dorados are legitimate and should be bred as such? A similar argument could be made for Cauchero and probably some others.

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Re: Poll- "Frog Pedigree". How important to you ?

Postby RichFrye » Mon Apr 25, 2011 4:33 pm

Tony wrote:
RichFrye wrote:Many of the general locales and names placed on the well established darts in our U.S. hobby are fine for breeding management.


Where do you draw the line? You are very outspoken about site-specific pumilio, and for good reason, but isn't the info we have for at least some of the non site-specific morphs good enough to meet that criterion? I'll use El Dorado as an example, they didn't come in with GPS data, but they are known to represent a true population that is essentially the Panamanian side of the BriBri morph's range. Isn't that enough to tell us that El Dorados are legitimate and should be bred as such? A similar argument could be made for Cauchero and probably some others.


I recently wrote here about exactly why 'el dorado' are very bad examples of 'site specific' pums. And I used the Cauchero, Darkland, and Esperanza as expamples of why.

Just as with the many differences in the blue pum areas which should absolutely not be bred together (larger, smaller, redder, bluer, ...ect.), the 'el dorado' represent a HUGE contigious area , going into CR and Bri Bri populations.
I draw the line at BS lables placed on HUGELY polymorphic pums like simply 'cristobal' (does it work for 'basti'??) 'el dorado' (we don't have any idea on barriers and what should be bred to what) 'mainland cristobal' (like a mainland Hawaiian I guess...) and all others which can not be IDed by looking at them.

I own a lot of site specific pums and other obligates. There are many more available to work with. I'll work with each and every one way before I accept a best guess for free.


Rich
Darts with parasites are analogous to mixed tanks, there are no known benefits to the frogs with either.


If tone is more important to you than content, you are at the wrong place.

My new email address is rich.frye@icloud.com and new phone number is 773 577 3476

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Re: Poll- "Frog Pedigree". How important to you ?

Postby Tony » Mon Apr 25, 2011 4:48 pm

RichFrye wrote:I recently wrote here about exactly why 'el dorado' are very bad examples of 'site specific' pums. And I used the Cauchero, Darkland, and Esperanza as expamples of why.



The farm thread? I guess I was hoping for some more specific info since I'm not familiar with the size of the population or barriers in the area. Any suggested reading on that? They don't seem all that variable from what I've seen, both BriBri and El Dorado are big red to orange frogs. I remember seeing Chucks BriBri, and if you put them next to my El Dorado I couldn't tell you which was which. That observation is a double edged sword of course, it could support the danger in trying to visually ID pumilio as easily as it could support them being the same population.

Since we're on the subject, where do "old line" frogs like Blue Jeans fit in when they are likely to be a mix of several populations spanning two countries? Do they get a pass since what we have is the best we can hope for, and with Panamanian morphs there is still the potential of getting site specific frogs in the future?

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Re: Poll- "Frog Pedigree". How important to you ?

Postby RichFrye » Mon Apr 25, 2011 5:01 pm

Tony wrote:
RichFrye wrote:I recently wrote here about exactly why 'el dorado' are very bad examples of 'site specific' pums. And I used the Cauchero, Darkland, and Esperanza as expamples of why.



The farm thread? I guess I was hoping for some more specific info since I'm not familiar with the size of the population or barriers in the area. Any suggested reading on that? They don't seem all that variable from what I've seen, both BriBri and El Dorado are big red to orange frogs. I remember seeing Chucks BriBri, and if you put them next to my El Dorado I couldn't tell you which was which. That observation is a double edged sword of course, it could support the danger in trying to visually ID pumilio as easily as it could support them being the same population.

Since we're on the subject, where do "old line" frogs like Blue Jeans fit in when they are likely to be a mix of several populations spanning two countries? Do they get a pass since what we have is the best we can hope for, and with Panamanian morphs there is still the potential of getting site specific frogs in the future?


The Bri Bris are extremely variable. 'El dorado' are also. Orange to red to brick to brown/black spotted to not spotted to big huge spots to half orange here and half red brick there...yes both are variable.
There are 'old lines' , not mixed, with info and also potential (being worked on as we speak) of getting site specific BJ lines again here.
Darts with parasites are analogous to mixed tanks, there are no known benefits to the frogs with either.


If tone is more important to you than content, you are at the wrong place.

My new email address is rich.frye@icloud.com and new phone number is 773 577 3476

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Re: Poll- "Frog Pedigree". How important to you ?

Postby Tony » Mon Apr 25, 2011 5:05 pm

Cool, thanks for the info. Any suggested reading besides continuing to go through old threads?

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Re: Poll- "Frog Pedigree". How important to you ?

Postby RichFrye » Mon Apr 25, 2011 5:10 pm

Tony wrote:Cool, thanks for the info. Any suggested reading besides continuing to go through old threads?

No problem. Give me about three-four months :wink:
Darts with parasites are analogous to mixed tanks, there are no known benefits to the frogs with either.


If tone is more important to you than content, you are at the wrong place.

My new email address is rich.frye@icloud.com and new phone number is 773 577 3476

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Re: Poll- "Frog Pedigree". How important to you ?

Postby Azurel » Sun Jun 19, 2011 7:55 pm

I voted #3..... I like to have as much info as possible.

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Re: Poll- "Frog Pedigree". How important to you ?

Postby Philsuma » Mon Jul 18, 2011 7:42 pm

I still see some people saying "it's none of anyone's business as to anything about their frogs history / breeding"

Not as long as I have anything to say....and own a Hobby specific website.

I also welcome others to question any person, at any time, as to where they got their frogs.

"Don't ask, don't tell" - for Frogs ? Oh my, No. The hobby and the very animals themselves, deserve better !

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Re: Poll- "Frog Pedigree". How important to you ?

Postby Azurel » Mon Jul 18, 2011 8:29 pm

Phelsuma wrote:I still see some people saying "it's none of anyone's business as to anything about their frogs history / breeding"

Not as long as I have anything to say....and own a Hobby specific website.

I also welcome others to question any person, at any time, as to where they got their frogs.

"Don't ask, don't tell" - for Frogs ? Oh my, No. The hobby and the very animals themselves, deserve better !


I think it is imperative for someone who is going to sell frogs be open and honest, I assume you are talking about a specific post on another site.

I think also that if I am going to give anyone cash that a part of that transaction before it takes place gives me the RIGHT to ask questions in regards to the frogs and wither you have bred them and the linage that they have come from. Wither this is America or not means squat. If your a seller and you don't like questions being asked and look at it like an inquisition then personally I think you:

A. either have something to hide.

B. are not confident in you husbandry and care that you have provided for the frogs, or

C. In the wrong hobby. Otherwise what reason would you have to hide any information or take the attitude of being offended that someone asked pertinent questions.

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Re: Poll- "Frog Pedigree". How important to you ?

Postby Michael Lawrence » Mon Jul 18, 2011 8:44 pm

If this is about what I think it is I think I brought up a few valid points. Beyond that I do see issues of need to know, Look at the hell ChrisK has taken over his frogs. Some frogs you better be able to produce the info or the pair as your asking for trouble if you cant. I do not like to publicly toss blame at anyone given Ive been private about some of the stuff Ive had to the point I had to prove it. I just wish that everyone who's asked these questions not take it so personal. Trust is one thing and this hobby is another. Many factors involved like stolen frogs, smuggled frogs and the regular need for tacking lines.

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Re: Poll- "Frog Pedigree". How important to you ?

Postby Azurel » Mon Jul 18, 2011 8:56 pm

The deal with ChrisK though is that some of the ones casting a suspicious eye would be that way regardless if he showed them the papers, they would then be like "Those are fake". In his case in the year or so I have read the many threads that he has posted or posted in he has never shown anything to me to be a shady person or be invasive. But he is also not selling those frogs publicly that I know of so for me it is not really a question.

Now if he was selling them and I am interested I should be able to ask. Now if he says take it to PM then I should respect that cause he don't have to be forced to answer questions in public.

But that is just my opinion.....

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Re: Poll- "Frog Pedigree". How important to you ?

Postby Philsuma » Mon Jul 18, 2011 9:18 pm

Azurel wrote:The deal with ChrisK though is that some of the ones casting a suspicious eye would be that way regardless if he showed them the papers, they would then be like "Those are fake". In his case in the year or so I have read the many threads that he has posted or posted in he has never shown anything to me to be a shady person or be invasive. But he is also not selling those frogs publicly that I know of so for me it is not really a question.

Now if he was selling them and I am interested I should be able to ask. Now if he says take it to PM then I should respect that cause he don't have to be forced to answer questions in public.


With all rare and questionable animals, those who keep them must be resigned to shoulder the weight of questions or else keep them secretly, like so many other do. Remember, Colombia has been closed for a while and those legal histos were all well over 10 years ago.

All the questions that Chris had to endure were expected for that species. I see nothing wrong there.

Nobody can ever be forced to give a deposition on any of their animals on a pubic forum but the reverse is true. ANY question may be asked or posted.

That's how the checks and balances work in the hobby, IMO.


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