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Re: Poll- "Frog Pedigree". How important to you ?

Posted: Fri Jun 29, 2012 7:58 am
by Rusty_Shackleford
K, your english is much better than some Americans!!

Re: Poll- "Frog Pedigree". How important to you ?

Posted: Fri Jun 29, 2012 7:59 am
by RichFrye
Vinnner wrote:One of the main points of contention with supporters of "site specific only" frogs is to prevent creation of hybrids in the hobby. The gray area comes in what is considered a hybrid, more on that later. I keep frogs for my enjoyment and they nor their offspring will ever be introduced back into the wild. That being said,I do not support creating "designer" frogs by crossing two clearly different morphs or species of dart frog. I don't think that claiming "site specific" frogs are more valuable does anything to help this cause. All it does is attempt to devalue frogs that come in without any site data. Not knowing the exact GPS coordinate of your animals does not mean that your frogs are crap and that breeding them to anything else without site data will create a hybrid.


With pums, one species, it has been scientifically proven (Dr. Kyle Summers, cited by me in the past) that there are issues when crossing two different locales . Muddy colored frogs and issues with breeding. It has also been proven in many other scientific studies that there are many other potential issues with out-crossing. Out-crossing being breeding of two frogs from two different breeding populations. Be they same or different species, matters not.
Hybrids are yet another issue which we should all be on the same page, yet I'm guessing 'we' are not...
Yes, not only are frogs with good, true breeding programs better in the short and long-run, but they are able to be correctly bred for generations to come, unlike a mixed bag of mixed locales and guesswork. Also, those who value their lineage generally care more for their frogs' well being better than someone who just got a frog off the plane and paid $5 per , for a group of 100...quality just follows quality. And the detriments of guesswork and crosses have been more than well documented. Science.

Re: Poll- "Frog Pedigree". How important to you ?

Posted: Fri Jun 29, 2012 8:01 am
by RichFrye
Vinnner wrote: Prior to 2004 or somewhere close to that timeframe, the hobby existed for the most part without any animals that had site data.


And, prior to 2004 very few pums lines were established or documented. very, very few. Even though tons and tons came in. Who dropped the ball on that? Breed what looks like each other didn't really work all that well, did it?
Vinnner wrote: Recently (circa 2008) Understory Enterprises has begun exporting animals from Peru and these imports arecoming in with exact site data codes. Don't get me wrong, this is not a bad thing, but Imitators that have been in the hobby since the early 90s should not be deemed any less valuable than a recent "site specific" imitator.


The 90'simis absolutely should be deemed less valuable if they have not been properly managed. Also, they are more valuable due to the efforts and good work put in by Mark and those working with him. Nothing free, but some want frogs for a close to free as possible.

Re: Poll- "Frog Pedigree". How important to you ?

Posted: Fri Jun 29, 2012 8:02 am
by RichFrye
Vinnner wrote:Use common sense and don't mix frogs that are clearly different morphs. If you are unsure, ask a veteran hobbyist, don't just post something on a forum. Know the experience of the person from whom your information comes. There is nothing wrong with wanting to know as much as you can about the animals you keep, but when you devalue other animals in promotion of your own opinion, it isn't good for the hobby. Animals with site data are no more or less valuable than animals without.


Common sense? Not common. Ask a veteran? Or demand proof? Know the experience, but demand proof?
No, please do not mix clearly different morphs. That's good info. But what about the morphs which look very similar, but come with no data and are impossible to breed correctly based on "please help me ID my new pum". Anybody read thousands of those posts??
If you are dealing with SR and/or know liars it's impossible to properly track info for breeding , so the value of your frog is obviously less based on that alone.
All frogs are NOT created equal, as all breeding programs and project are absolutely not cteated equal.
To say that frogs with zero lineage are just as monetarily equal is not only silly, but proven wrong.

Vinnner wrote:A big downside to site specific data is that once released, the smugglers know exactly where to go to get that frog. This is the reason that exporters use codes to designate site specific animals. There are hobbyists that don't agree with me on this subject and some of them I know and respect, so get their opinions and make your own choice. If you choose to keep only morhps that have site data just don't devalue and trash the frogs that don't.


And all an importer and exported would have to do (as Marcus has in the past, and many other institutions have...) is simply say 'these are Darklands locale code 101'. Not to be mixed with Darkalnds code 102, or 103, or, or , or. No need to give GPS for breeding purposes, just be able to quantify populations for correct breeding programs.
Correct breeding and lineage , for proper health and future generations. More , less or same value as opposed to mixed , mutted best guesses?

The science behind keeping tracked lines and proper breeding of known breeding populations is well proven. On a quantifiable level the benefits of pure lines absolutely have a higher monetary value and absolutely are proven to have better health in the long run...for those who care about that sort of thing, and find value in good lines with good info breed in proper projects.


Now. Here's the up-side to buying frogs with either no info or bad info or lied about info...

They are cheap!


Rich

Re: Poll- "Frog Pedigree". How important to you ?

Posted: Fri Jun 29, 2012 8:44 am
by Vinnner
My mistake I completely forget to tag this. It was taken from:

Copyright 2011 Robb Melancon, website: http://www.robbster.com/

I appreciate you taking your time to post responses to different parts of the article Rich. I will read through them, and am sure I will pull some knowledge from this. Just want to make it clear that the excerpt was just one of a few sites where I have been reading off of lately. Now do I agree with everything there, no. But like I said Im hoping to gain some more knowledge!

Vinny

Re: Poll- "Frog Pedigree". How important to you ?

Posted: Fri Jun 29, 2012 10:53 am
by RichFrye
Vinnner wrote:My mistake I completely forget to tag this. It was taken from:

Copyright 2011 Robb Melancon, website: http://www.robbster.com/

I appreciate you taking your time to post responses to different parts of the article Rich. I will read through them, and am sure I will pull some knowledge from this. Just want to make it clear that the excerpt was just one of a few sites where I have been reading off of lately. Now do I agree with everything there, no. But like I said Im hoping to gain some more knowledge!

Vinny


You are quite welcome Vinny.

Rich

Re: Poll- "Frog Pedigree". How important to you ?

Posted: Fri Nov 04, 2016 4:27 pm
by Philsuma
and again...