Poll - illegal and legal frog list ?

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Would you like to see a legal / illegal listing of all Dendrobatid frogs for use in our hobby ?

No no no. Let sleeping dogs lie...don't ask don't tell.
15
32%
Who cares. Frogs are frogs and people will do what they want anyway
2
4%
Yes. We need a roadmap to what's legal and illegal.
30
64%
 
Total votes: 47

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Philsuma
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Poll - illegal and legal frog list ?

Postby Philsuma » Sat Oct 01, 2011 1:07 am

Would you like to see a legal / illegal listing of all Dendrobatid frogs for use in our hobby ?

Should someone sit down with someone high up in the Fish and Wildlife organization and get a list of what we can and cannot keep ?

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Re: Poll - illegal and legal frog list ?

Postby evolvstll » Sat Oct 01, 2011 2:02 am

Could open a can of worms. Sitting with authorities? Could push some of those gray area frogs in our collections to the cannot keep list that they may be looking the other way towards right now. Brazil style frogs for example. Just a thought......
If you can still count the number of frogs you have, you obviously don't have enough.

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ChrisK
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Re: Poll - illegal and legal frog list ?

Postby ChrisK » Sat Oct 01, 2011 6:35 am

Yeah inviting scrutiny from the clueless just does not seem like a good idea.

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Philsuma
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Re: Poll - illegal and legal frog list ?

Postby Philsuma » Sat Oct 01, 2011 10:08 am

Of course Canada would not be involved, Glenn.....heh

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Re: Poll - illegal and legal frog list ?

Postby frogfreak » Sat Oct 01, 2011 6:22 pm

Philsuma wrote:Of course Canada would not be involved, Glenn.....heh


Canada or not, I still think it's a bad idea. What Chris said...
Glenn

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Re: Poll - illegal and legal frog list ?

Postby Philsuma » Sun Oct 02, 2011 1:47 pm

I could have predicted the 50/50 split.....

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blocker institute
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Poll - illegal and legal frog list ?

Postby blocker institute » Sun Oct 02, 2011 2:02 pm

It would help complete a significant amount of research for all in the hobby, leading to higher levels of education and experience. Of course a list simply being made doesn't lead to compliance. Speed limit is set in many areas, who is deadset on following it? It's funny to see the two sides of this just after the controversy with Stu's frogs.

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Re: Poll - illegal and legal frog list ?

Postby Philsuma » Sun Oct 02, 2011 3:09 pm

blocker institute wrote:It would help complete a significant amount of research for all in the hobby, leading to higher levels of education and experience. Of course a list simply being made doesn't lead to compliance. Speed limit is set in many areas, who is deadset on following it? It's funny to see the two sides of this just after the controversy with Stu's frogs.


Keep in mind, Stu's frogs (Mystis) are in the same boat as Canada....not relevant to this issue as they are both countries outside the U.S.

We don't even need to consider compliance at this stage, that's getting ahead of ourselves. Walk before run. It's just embarassing to hear advanced hobbyists wonder if Leucomelas are even "legal".

I'll take a guess that USFW devotes @ 80% of it's enforcement resources to domestic animal issues and 20% to imported animals. Just a guess mind you. I'm fairly certain trafficing in Blandings or Bog turtles investigations is going to supercede port of entry import interdiction resources every single time.
it's wishful thinking to believe that they "don't know what's going on". Don't confuse inaction or lack of high profile media announcments with lack of perception. They monitor all the websites. The personal allocated to investigation and enforcement is threadbare. The Miami office recently only had a couple guys assigned to all of SoFl. A couple guys.....

Information is power and moves us forward. Wouldn't you rather know how they see things ?

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blocker institute
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Poll - illegal and legal frog list ?

Postby blocker institute » Sun Oct 02, 2011 4:07 pm

I believe Stu's situation is highly relevant. He too was unaware of the legality concerning his frogs, if there existed a site anybody could check then there's no issue at all .

Any information gathered for use would clearly be obtained by those most highly regarded in their respected fields. If that's not part of any implementation than the entire process is flawed.

I understand frustration with those that don't know If a Leuc is legal or not, but to my point before, without being the actual person to import or breed, any frog can be illegal. Not necessarily to own, but maybe by way of importation or (i.e. Smuggling) or simply stolen. So many issues, so few people that care enough to do anything about it. Just like politicians cant agree, nobody on this board or the 2 or 3 other relevant forums can even agree on some of the most basic of husbandry.

Good to see the thought behind it.

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Re: Poll - illegal and legal frog list ?

Postby Philsuma » Sun Oct 02, 2011 4:22 pm

blocker institute wrote:I believe Stu's situation is highly relevant. He too was unaware of the legality concerning his frogs, if there existed a site anybody could check then there's no issue at all .

Any information gathered for use would clearly be obtained by those most highly regarded in their respected fields. If that's not part of any implementation than the entire process is flawed.

I understand frustration with those that don't know If a Leuc is legal or not, but to my point before, without being the actual person to import or breed, any frog can be illegal. Not necessarily to own, but maybe by way of importation or (i.e. Smuggling) or simply stolen. So many issues, so few people that care enough to do anything about it. Just like politicians cant agree, nobody on this board or the 2 or 3 other relevant forums can even agree on some of the most basic of husbandry.

Good to see the thought behind it.


We can't research what is illegal in the U.K., as bad as that sounds. What is going on over there is their personal ball of wax. Apparently Mystis are legal there but not here for instance. It's going to be a MONUMENTAL effort just to get some semblance of U.S F&W insight. Someone from CA or UK is welcome to do their bit in their respective countries and post here though.

Husbandry is husbandry and highly debatable and opinionated - always will be. No need to fret about that battle that no one will ever "win". Leave it be and worry about the stuff we can make headway with.

We can neither get excited about if a certain Leuc has been smuggled or not.

but to get back on topic....

A list of what will be allowed in, for instance, would help greatly.

For example:

Would CB histrionicus with breeder affidavits from Holland or U.K be allowed importation for commercial purposes ?

Yes or no ?

THAT is the start we need.

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Re: Poll - illegal and legal frog list ?

Postby RichFrye » Sun Oct 02, 2011 7:54 pm

Call the F+W and simply ask. Chicgo has a great office with tons of great answers. Detroit sucks (their F+WS does too).

Google the Chicago office if you guys really want good info , as opposed to guesswork.
Darts with parasites are analogous to mixed tanks, there are no known benefits to the frogs with either.


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Re: Poll - illegal and legal frog list ?

Postby Philsuma » Sun Oct 02, 2011 8:07 pm

I'm trying to find a HQ office for them, but their website sucks to navigate and is none too helpful.

If they have a L.E office somewhere in the DC / VA area, I'll drive down as its easier to talk to someone face to face.

Here's a phone # for their L.E section - I'll try to call them tomorrow and see who to talk to about the hobby.

703-358-1949 - VA/DC area code.

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Philsuma
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Re: Poll - illegal and legal frog list ?

Postby Philsuma » Mon Oct 03, 2011 1:01 pm

Had a couple PM's on this....

My personal stance is 100% Anti-Government interference with our hobby, but I realize that's far from realistic.

I also believe it's better to be forewarned and thus forearmed with info....than.....not.

I simply seek to know what they know.

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Re: Poll - illegal and legal frog list ?

Postby Stu&Shaz » Sat Oct 22, 2011 5:48 pm

For every new comer to our hobby in which ever country a clear list of what the gov in question says is legal or not must be a great thing,but for all that are in the hobby here or there the onus of proof of captive bred etc might be a nightmare of huge proportions,i have understory frogs...but no papers mysties which i know who bred...no paper,the much desired histo breeder i guess would have to track his back to those 20yr old imports if our govs asked,because they would ask for proof, that they are NOT smuggled, thats surely how they work,US UK Canada where ever. If one wasn't clued up enough to ask when one began this hobby,which i doubt many are,not only me,then one might open a big can of worms.It does amaze me that this list is not stickied at the top of all our forums,here and there.We go into this hobby as good honest people and i guess get absorbed in doing it as well we can focusing on the frogs wellfare,then realise that the most touted beginners dart leucemedas might not be legal weird huh
regards
Stu

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Re: Poll - illegal and legal frog list ?

Postby Philsuma » Sun Nov 06, 2011 8:03 am

Wow. The more you read and see what other people THINK about smuggling, illegal frogs, USF&W.....it's apparent that we have no idea what we are talking about.

Hilarious.

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Re: Poll - illegal and legal frog list ?

Postby Philsuma » Sun Nov 06, 2011 12:01 pm


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Re: Poll - illegal and legal frog list ?

Postby Swampfox » Thu Feb 09, 2012 2:04 pm

Don't know how I missed this before. I am firmly in the "mind your business" camp. I have ZERO faith in country of origin for most dendrobatids. I have ZERO faith in most government regulatory bodies. Thus I have (you guessed it) ZERO interest in discussing any hobby related matter with members of either. I don't even like engaging in this debate with zoological institutions...

Our frogs are here. They can never go back. Even if we wanted them to, they could not because of ALL those mentioned above. So, let's give them a good life and be done with it. Finding out that your 7 year old breeding pair of Galacs are suddenly illegal changes what exactly? You going to turn them over to the authorities? Me neither.

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Re: Poll - illegal and legal frog list ?

Postby ChrisK » Fri Feb 10, 2012 2:56 am

Swampfox wrote: Finding out that your 7 year old breeding pair of Galacs are suddenly illegal changes what exactly? You going to turn them over to the authorities? Me neither.


Anyone who has galacs, they ARE illegal unless you can prove otherwise since Brazil doesn't release frogs, and I can honestly say I don't know anyone and have never seen anyone say they won't buy galacs or turn theirs over to the authorities because they are definitely smuggled or of a smuggled bloodline.

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Re: Poll - illegal and legal frog list ?

Postby Philsuma » Tue Sep 10, 2013 12:29 pm

At one time, I heard the story about the Brazilian Casti's - that the govt of Brazil wanted all frogs turned in, dead or alive ect. HA. Like that was ever gonna happen. I think that story was more to scare the zoos and administration people. There is no way an agency is going to go after hobbyists door-to-door. The costs alone would prohibit that nightmare as well as the time of prosecution and manpower. Not gonna happen.

I agree with "what's here is here" but smugglers also use that as a cover up / wash.

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Re: Poll - illegal and legal frog list ?

Postby scott_r » Sat Sep 14, 2013 8:42 am

I say we just mind our own business and enjoy the hobby. If you have solid evidence that someone is smuggling or dealing in illegal animals, morally you should report them. But not on suspicion alone. That ruins reputations of good people and is just a witch hunt.
The majority of the founding stock entered the USA legally with permission. That does not mean they left the CoO legally, so as we now know, they are in a gray area with regards to legality. Do they go on your list as illegal? Do we hand over 70% of the species in the hobby?
Is the list so people don't unknowingly buy an illegal species? That should be of the least concern. Let's say someone has Mysti froglets. They aren't going to list them for sale here. They aren't going to offer them to someone they just met. Hell, I doubt they would sell to anyone they haven't know for years.

And on a side note, if you are one who does not trust the USFW, are you one to list all your frogs in your signature and post pics of your frog room on line for all to see?


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