Poll- Can Dart Frogs Drown in a Viv ?

Like to answer Polls and check out the results ?

Can Dart Frogs Drown in a Viv ?

Yes - Seen it happen or have knowledge it happened to a hobbyist
21
43%
Maybe - no hard evidence, yet
22
45%
Doubt it - Never heard of it happening
6
12%
 
Total votes: 49

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Philsuma
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Re: Poll- Can Dart Frogs Drown in a Viv ?

Postby Philsuma » Wed Dec 19, 2012 10:49 pm

RichFrye wrote:Also, I'd like to hear from those who said they witnessed a drowning. Which means they sat back and enjoyed a death without stepping in. Maybe they have video instead of actual in-person spectating?
Anecdotal info only goes so far.


frog 'snuff' peliculas...lol

Dude, they ain't fish...of course they can drown.

I've had 2 metamophs get tangled in duckweed filaments and ABSOLUTELY drown. Extrapolate that to any other water.

Again...it's uncommon. It's inexplicable. It's downright weird, odd and kooky....but it absolutely does happen.

Image

p.s....no need to go all 'Ed" on us with the Anecdotal whuppin' stick. :wink:

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Re: Poll- Can Dart Frogs Drown in a Viv ?

Postby RichFrye » Wed Dec 19, 2012 11:17 pm

RichFrye wrote:Yes, animals which have lungs to process air can and do at times drown .


This this, with what else I have written as data.
Darts with parasites are analogous to mixed tanks, there are no known benefits to the frogs with either.


If tone is more important to you than content, you are at the wrong place.

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Re: Poll- Can Dart Frogs Drown in a Viv ?

Postby Philsuma » Tue Nov 05, 2013 9:41 pm

NUMEROUS accounts of frogs found dead in film cans, broms and water features. I highly doubt that they ALL crawled into water to make their last stand/ die.

Can they be chased into water filled areas ?
or
Held or pinned underwater during aggression ?
or
Tangled in plant filaments and trapped ?

IMO...oh yes.

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Re: Poll- Can Dart Frogs Drown in a Viv ?

Postby frogfreak » Wed Nov 06, 2013 6:08 am

Philsuma wrote:NUMEROUS accounts of frogs found dead in film cans, broms and water features. I highly doubt that they ALL crawled into water to make their last stand/ die.

Held or pinned underwater during aggression ?

IMO...oh yes.


Non believer, Phil. Ask me again in 5 years. lol I've seen some of my Tincs being held under water. They have the attention span of a gnat... Fly! off the aggressor goes..I've also seen frogs dive under water and go between rocks, when spooked. They come out eventually. It's surprising how long they can stay under...
Glenn

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Re: Poll- Can Dart Frogs Drown in a Viv ?

Postby BcsTx » Wed Nov 06, 2013 8:43 am

Non believer, Phil. Ask me again in 5 years. lol I've seen some of my Tincs being held under water. They have the attention span of a gnat... Fly! off the aggressor goes..I've also seen frogs dive under water and go between rocks, when spooked. They come out eventually. It's surprising how long they can stay under...


Six years in the hobby have not seen it once. They are amphibians, swim well and can stay under water for a while, that is what I've seen on many occasions.
-Beth

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Re: Poll- Can Dart Frogs Drown in a Viv ?

Postby Philsuma » Wed Nov 06, 2013 9:26 am

My biology classes tell me that a frog can drown.

A quick interweb search provides a lot of information as well.

But the most interesting thing is that your fellow dart frog hobbyists have indicated in a poll here, that they also believe that dart frogs can inexplicably die in the viv from....drowning.

I've seen it. I'm sure of it.

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Re: Poll- Can Dart Frogs Drown in a Viv ?

Postby frogfreak » Wed Nov 06, 2013 9:36 am

I agree that they can drown (Frog in swimming pool with no escape) but are we talking about a healthy frog drowning?
Glenn

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Re: Poll- Can Dart Frogs Drown in a Viv ?

Postby Philsuma » Wed Nov 06, 2013 1:34 pm

Check the previous posts here Glenn. Mark P. reports a retic diving head first into a brom and drowning -he saw it. There's a couple other members reporting it too. Uncommon yes. Certainly not an epidemic. Is there room for the hobby to make note and include this possibility in enclosure designs and husbandry. Yes.

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Re: Poll- Can Dart Frogs Drown in a Viv ?

Postby Philsuma » Wed Nov 06, 2013 1:36 pm

I see what you are saying now...

Only the SICK frogs go to die in water, right ?

I don't believe that.

I think Jon H. hit the nail on the head with 'drowning is natures way of taking care of culling the weak from the gene pool'.

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Re: Poll- Can Dart Frogs Drown in a Viv ?

Postby frogfreak » Wed Nov 06, 2013 1:46 pm

Philsuma wrote:I see what you are saying now...

Only the SICK frogs go to die in water, right ?

I don't believe that.

I think Jon H. hit the nail on the head with 'drowning is natures way of taking care of culling the weak from the gene pool'.


Yes, that's what I'm saying, Phil. What Jon wrote may be correct. Not much you can do about that.
Glenn

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Re: Poll- Can Dart Frogs Drown in a Viv ?

Postby RichFrye » Wed Nov 06, 2013 2:01 pm

The fact that someone actually watched as a frog , which can hold it's breath for a verrrrrrrry looooong time , died is unfathomable . I mean, if I knew, knew that a frog was drowning I think I would step in and stop the drowning.
Tell me exactly how one drown-proofs a brom...
Was this 100% Mark P., or Canada Mark P?

Once again;

I have yet to hear of one single person watch while a frog was held down of self imposed drowning until death. Please cite someone who has not only taken the time needed to watch as a frog is killed but also had no impulse to stop said drowning.

Healthy frogs (frogs, amphibians...) which can scale a glass wall have or will sooooo rarely have any issues with water as a hazard that in my mind it's not worth any concern at all. It may even be hard to design a viv which a healthy frog could not navigate safely.
Sick frogs often go to water by instinct . They are believe to soak in water to attempt to leach out parasites.
It is greatly my speculation (speculation, like everyone else here) having never witnessed a drowning but witnessed frog soaking , that many a sick frog has died in water.
There is potentially a HUGE difference between dying in water and drowning.
If anyone would like to confirm or deny a drowning a simple necropsy finding water in the lungs would add some info to the debate...I have yet to read of water found in lungs from a suspected drowning.
Darts with parasites are analogous to mixed tanks, there are no known benefits to the frogs with either.


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Re: Poll- Can Dart Frogs Drown in a Viv ?

Postby Philsuma » Wed Nov 06, 2013 2:07 pm

It's not so much that we need to 'babyproof' the viv or get radically paranoid about it....just that it HAPPENS.

Now, if people want to take that into consideration and play percentages, fine.

It's like the hobbyists that want 5 tincs in a hundred gallon enclosure with a footprint that includes 25% water up to 4 inches deep. Everything could be fine...but...you have just increased the odds.

Rich....Mark P. from FL - posts at the start of this thread.

This is mainly a cautionary tale to all the newbs that come along and have a dead frog in a film can and post here: "whaaaahapppen' ????

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Re: Poll- Can Dart Frogs Drown in a Viv ?

Postby RichFrye » Wed Nov 06, 2013 2:27 pm

Philsuma wrote:...

This is mainly a cautionary tale to all the newbs that come along and have a dead frog in a film can and post here: "whaaaahapppen' ????


Then I will add this to the drowning thread.
Time wisely spent on proper quarantine and testing to make sure your frog is healthy before you put your frog in-viv will most likely cut down your chances of finding a sick frog either soaking or dead in water.
Darts with parasites are analogous to mixed tanks, there are no known benefits to the frogs with either.


If tone is more important to you than content, you are at the wrong place.

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Re: Poll- Can Dart Frogs Drown in a Viv ?

Postby Dendro_Dave » Wed Nov 06, 2013 6:10 pm

Other then possibly one frog holding another one down, I don't think healthy frogs drown, unless there is some other sorta freak accident.

I think they go to soak in an attempt to be as hydrated as possible, or possibly leach parasites/contaminates out like Rich suggested, and then often they are to far gone and drown. Keeper shows up in the morning and sees dead frog in the water and is like "OMG it drown!"... Maybe, but if so probably because it was about to die anyways.

I suppose it is possible too that a frog chased/frightened into the water may also go into "spazz out mode" like some occasionally do and may drown that way. Or it could be something happens when they are underwater but extremely stressed by being chased/frightened that with their little hearts pounding they so rapidly loose oxygen in their blood that they pass out before instinct kicks in and tells them to risk coming up for air? ...I don't know, but usually IMO if a frog drowns there is some extenuating circumstance.

There may be a few cases out there where a sick frog that was weak and drowned might have been saved had there been no water feature, and if someone wants to be ultra safe and not have that tiny extra risk a water feature adds, then that's cool in my book, but I think people jump to conclusions in most supposed frog drownings.
Everything I've ever wrote is/was just my opinion :P

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Re: Poll- Can Dart Frogs Drown in a Viv ?

Postby Philsuma » Wed Nov 06, 2013 6:22 pm

Quick Beth..Thank Dave's post !

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Re: Poll- Can Dart Frogs Drown in a Viv ?

Postby BcsTx » Wed Nov 06, 2013 6:40 pm

Philsuma wrote:Quick Beth..Thank Dave's post !



Done! :mrgreen:
-Beth

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Re: Poll- Can Dart Frogs Drown in a Viv ?

Postby Dendro_Dave » Wed Nov 06, 2013 7:08 pm

TAG!!! ...You're both it! :P
Everything I've ever wrote is/was just my opinion :P

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Re: Poll- Can Dart Frogs Drown in a Viv ?

Postby DianeCarter » Wed Nov 06, 2013 9:42 pm

OK, I just went back and read this whole thread, and it reminded me of something odd that happened a month or two ago.
My Imitators reproduce nicely now, and I have a grow out tank for their babies. It's really a a misnomer, because several of the "babies" are now full grown. I learned quickly that if I wait for the newly morphed froglet to come totally out of the canister, into the viv, it's hell to catch the little thing to transport it to the grow-out! Once their front legs pop, they usually kind of "flirt" for several days with coming out of the water, usually still in the canister, not all the way out into the viv. They get scared and poof! back into the water in the can. So a day or two after their fronts pop, I move the can (with the froglet) into the grow-out. Problem solved, right?
Well, I put a can with a froglet into the grow-out viv, and then I frequently checked to see if the froglet was out of the can yet. One morning I shined my flashlight into the can, and did a double-take. The frog was huge, spread out, and was floating on top of the water in the can. I thought it was dead! The frog couldn't have possible bloated THAT MUCH, even if dead! I looked again, and finally realized..........one of the grown up babies was floating on the water, with the baby under it, unable to get out! I quickly dumped the can into an 8 oz deli cup, and both the full grown frog and the small froglet ended up being alive and well.
I have read here on DD that some females will feed other females tads. Could the (full-grown) baby have been trying to feed the small froglet? It appeared to be trying to keep the froglet from getting out of the water, but that thought is just too disturbing. Anyone else have similar experience?
Pumilio bastimentos, R. benedictas, P. Terribilis orange, R. Imitator Cainarachi Valley, D. Leucomelas, D. Auratus, D. Azureus, P. vittatus, D. cobalts, D.Oyapok, Bombina Orientalis

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Re: Poll- Can Dart Frogs Drown in a Viv ?

Postby pafrogguy » Fri Nov 08, 2013 8:26 pm

I have never seen a frog drown either. At one point I had water features in every single tank I made. Never an issue once. And I have water features in a fair amount of them now as well and have yet to see a problem. And I have seen many thumbs dive, as was stated earlier in the thread, and burrow into the grave whenever I have tried to pull them. They are frogs, and whether they are aquatic or not, they can still be submerged for somewhat extended periods. My solid orange galacts use to submerge themselves in the pond all of the time. They weren't sick or going there to die. They just seemed to enjoy it. Scott Menigoz also has water features in most, if not all of his vivs and he has probably 100 tanks or close to it. Same with Sean Stewart, almost every tank has a small pond. No drowning issues. If you have the frogs grouped poorly (ie a bunch of female tincs or male pumilio in too small of an enclosure), then I am sure there may be a chance. I am in the same belief that a healthy frog won't drown in a water feature.

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Re: Poll- Can Dart Frogs Drown in a Viv ?

Postby frogfreak » Sat Nov 09, 2013 7:32 am

pafrogguy wrote:ie a bunch of female tincs


I have water in all my vivs with groups of Tincs, including multiple females.
Glenn


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