Should testing Dart Frogs for disease, be mandatory ?

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Should testing Dart Frogs for disease, be mandatory ?

Yes -Everyone should test
12
48%
Maybe - Only businesses and big sellers should test
9
36%
No
4
16%
 
Total votes: 25

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RichFrye
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Re: Should testing Dart Frogs for disease, be mandatory ?

Postby RichFrye » Mon Nov 18, 2013 2:56 pm

Also, the more people get frogs in one day and turn right around and flip them the next the more the need for testing.
Those who have essentially have had the exact same frogs year in and year out without feeling the need get in tons of 'new' locales and those without any new frogs at all will find the possibility of those frogs carrying a disease which wipes out frogs a much less possible occurrence , especially if a worry is chytrid and year in and year out low viv temps reach low-mid 60's...
Everyone should test, some just more than others.
And , there are a few well known froggers who know damn well, and have for quite awhile, that their collections have both rana AND chytrid. The more people post, the easier it should be to figure out exactly who these habitual offenders are.
Darts with parasites are analogous to mixed tanks, there are no known benefits to the frogs with either.


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pafrogguy
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Re: Should testing Dart Frogs for disease, be mandatory ?

Postby pafrogguy » Mon Nov 18, 2013 6:13 pm

Anyone can fake results. If there is a problem trusting a breeder's results, then chances are you should not be buying frogs from them anyways. I have never dealt with Brad so I have no first hand knowledge of them, but I think it is good they are doing this. I myself have frogs in my collection from the breeder in question. All of them tested clean of rana or chytrid. I am however having everything retested again now to be sure. I will also be posting my test results so folks that I do sell or trade frogs to can feel comfortable they are getting a healthy frog. Sure this is not 100% full proof, but if you know your breeder, it wont be an issue.

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Armson
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Re: Should testing Dart Frogs for disease, be mandatory ?

Postby Armson » Tue Nov 19, 2013 11:34 am

RichFrye wrote:
Armson wrote:
RichFrye wrote:Anything can be faked, and in time will be.

This is a circular argument. There are lots things that 'could' be done.
RichFrye wrote:On a different note, but still worth mentioning, there are those who get one lone fecal and declare their frog "clean" ...what does this prove?

People that just do the minimum are going to suck no matter what hobby they are in.
RichFrye wrote:If they use people's (mine for example...) line names and refuse to offer info on who they acquired the founding stock from

Which is why I wasn't a huge fan.

In their defense, you did go after them pretty hard and were quite intimidating.
of course there was one really easy way to shut you up and avoiding it just made them look a tad bit shady.

-Byron

Not an argument Byron, there is nothing to argue . It was a factual statement , period.
Yes, it will be very hard to shut me up about assholes in the hobby who , as their opening 'howdy' lie to me and try to get something out of me in a deceptive manner.
You will also find me hard to shut up when someone is using my name as a selling point and refuses to prove the animals' lineage .
The way and people they get their frogs from also may raise a few eyebrows...
The smarmy way they market 'their' frogs is a matter of opinion , I guess, but the facts that they are hiding things from the public and operate in a way less than honest and open manner is not only shady, it is what some of us work very hard to quash in our hobby. Although they seem WAY more on the business end than hobby end.
Free cold pacs , yo.


This was my point... the fact that you called them out and repeatedly pressed him for answer. IMO was the right move especially if he was going to claim they came from your line. The best way to shut you up would have been to just give a straight answer. The fact that he didn't annoyed the shit out of me and doesn't give me the warm and fuzzies. And why the hell did it have been such a big secret anyway?

Rich: Where did you get my Grannies from?
Brad: Jay-z
Rich: ok

That should have been the extent of the conversation.

But this doesn't detract from the fact they are the first ones to at least offer testing and step up and say this hobby can do better.

-Byron

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RichFrye
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Re: Should testing Dart Frogs for disease, be mandatory ?

Postby RichFrye » Tue Nov 19, 2013 11:39 am

Understood and agreed upon.
The reason Brad Martin did not want to tell us where he got his frogs from was that the person who got him a number of those frogs has been questioned in the past about how HE got MY frogs.
The duplicity lies with both Brad and the dirtbag he is dealing with. Just a little whisper.
Darts with parasites are analogous to mixed tanks, there are no known benefits to the frogs with either.


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Armson
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Re: Should testing Dart Frogs for disease, be mandatory ?

Postby Armson » Tue Nov 19, 2013 11:54 am

pafrogguy wrote:Anyone can fake results. If there is a problem trusting a breeder's results, then chances are you should not be buying frogs from them anyways. I have never dealt with Brad so I have no first hand knowledge of them, but I think it is good they are doing this. I myself have frogs in my collection from the breeder in question. All of them tested clean of rana or chytrid. I am however having everything retested again now to be sure. I will also be posting my test results so folks that I do sell or trade frogs to can feel comfortable they are getting a healthy frog. Sure this is not 100% full proof, but if you know your breeder, it won't be an issue.

Josh,

You are spot on.




Can we all agree on one thing....

Stop using a fallacy to counter the idea of testing. Saying that people could fake results is not a reason to avoid or discourge having tests done. Even saying it kills brain cells. We could play that game with everything...
Don't go driving you could crash.
Don't go outside you could get mugged.
Don't vote for Obama it could ruin the country
Don't vote for Romney it could ruin the country

and for the holiday season

Don't get an Official Red Ryder Carbine-Action Two-Hundred-Shot Range Model Air Rifle, you could shoot your eye out.

I would like to think that we are far enough along in this hobby that if you did fake your results and got caught doing it you would get excommunicated from the hobby extremely fast.

-Byron

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RichFrye
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Re: Should testing Dart Frogs for disease, be mandatory ?

Postby RichFrye » Tue Nov 19, 2013 12:07 pm

Armson wrote:

...Stop using a fallacy to counter the idea of testing...

-Byron


Who is doing so and where have they done this? I have not read one post saying 'do not test'.

What I personally am trying to convey is the fact that if people who can not be trusted are saying ANYTHING , be it health related , line related, affiliation related or whatnot ...those peoples' testing needs to be heavily scrutinized due to the fact that testing can be manipulated and faked.
Additional testing may be in order, and always a good thing. Please do full and thorough testing, yes.
Darts with parasites are analogous to mixed tanks, there are no known benefits to the frogs with either.


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My new email address is rich.frye@icloud.com and new phone number is 773 577 3476

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Philsuma
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Re: Should testing Dart Frogs for disease, be mandatory ?

Postby Philsuma » Tue Nov 26, 2013 6:07 am

I don't think anyone is saying 'do not test"...but there is definately a lot of credence being put into results -so much so, that I think we are literally back to square one, meaning all the current fap in the recent threads did not sway the opinion of results/ labs ect.

I think the takeaway is similar to what Rich just said:

1. Do not buy frogs from Breeders/ vendors you do not trust.

2. If the frog LOOKS sick...it is

3. If the frog doesn't look sick...it probably isn't, so don't start screaming and wailing

4. See #1 above

5. See #4 and #1 above

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RichFrye
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Re: Should testing Dart Frogs for disease, be mandatory ?

Postby RichFrye » Tue Nov 26, 2013 10:50 am

Philsuma wrote:I don't think anyone is saying 'do not test"...but there is definately a lot of credence being put into results -so much so, that I think we are literally back to square one, meaning all the current fap in the recent threads did not sway the opinion of results/ labs ect.

I think the takeaway is similar to what Rich just said:

1. Do not buy frogs from Breeders/ vendors you do not trust.

2. If the frog LOOKS sick...it is

3. If the frog doesn't look sick...it probably isn't, so don't start screaming and wailing

4. See #1 above

5. See #4 and #1 above



On #3 , "sick" may not be the best term. Just as one clean fecal does not a clean frog make.
If the frog is symptomatic it is showing signs. An infected or diseased frog may not be symptomatic but may become symptomatic after triggered.
It is possible for a non-symptomatic frog to have serious health issues and become symptomatic later in life , possibly after an infection grows , parasite loads grow, and/ or stress triggers . There are quite a few triggers such as shipping, movement from one viv to another, altering of sex ratios, addition of young or offspring to a viv , husbandry and environment which is not optimal, etc.
Once again I make the analogy that you can not look at the hottest and most healthy lady at the end of the bar and assume she is 100% healthy by visual inspection , no matter how long or hard you look...
Time and good quality testing run by professionals is usually the tell for most frogs.
Darts with parasites are analogous to mixed tanks, there are no known benefits to the frogs with either.


If tone is more important to you than content, you are at the wrong place.

My new email address is rich.frye@icloud.com and new phone number is 773 577 3476


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