Mystis legal in all of Europe, but not rest of world ?

Excidobates captivus -Myers, 1982, revised in Twomey and Brown, 2008
Excidobates mysteriosus - Myers, 1982, revised in Schulte, 1990
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RichFrye
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Mystis legal in all of Europe, but not rest of world ?

Postby RichFrye » Fri Dec 15, 2006 12:47 pm

Last words should be "civilized world" in the title.

I am very interested about different froggers thoughts on why Europeans think they can transport Darts across state lines willy-nilly.

I am also interested in why sooo many Europeans believe that because their officials choose not to enforce CITES regulations they think this makes their frogs "legal". Seen too many VERY soft posts on this. One frogger from Europe stating that Mysteriosus are legal in Europe because Peru "made a mistake " and in the same post admitting he is from Spain and is in possession these Mysteriosus that were purchased and transported from a country MANY borders away. Minus the CITES papers. Hmmmm.

Any and all Europeans are invited to chime in.

Rich
Darts with parasites are analogous to mixed tanks, there are no known benefits to the frogs with either.


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Postby RichFrye » Fri Dec 15, 2006 1:50 pm

This may help to clear up the legal issues for member nations that think their state laws trump CITES.
Darts are appendix II

http://www.cites.org/eng/disc/how.shtml

Rich
Darts with parasites are analogous to mixed tanks, there are no known benefits to the frogs with either.


If tone is more important to you than content, you are at the wrong place.

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Frogtofall

Postby Frogtofall » Fri Dec 15, 2006 4:47 pm

From what I can tell, that person got them from Germany and it seems they think they are legal in Germany. Wouldn't surprise me. I remember reading somewhere that one or some of the European countries just deemed these things legal regardless of their origins.

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Postby RichFrye » Fri Dec 15, 2006 5:03 pm

Hey Antone,
I have heard that "argument" also. That 's one of the reasons I posted the link to the CITES home page. The member country (seems there are only about a half dozen non-members in the world) must follow the bare minimum CITES regs. Each member country may add to or make their own laws tougher , but may not "loosen up" or disregard the rules.
The fact that there is ZERO fear in Europe in buying Darts (with questionable legality or not) and driving them across multiple state borders should raise question alone. This is an issue of states choosing and wanting to turn a blind eye.

Rich
Darts with parasites are analogous to mixed tanks, there are no known benefits to the frogs with either.


If tone is more important to you than content, you are at the wrong place.

My new email address is rich.frye@icloud.com and new phone number is 773 577 3476

955i

Postby 955i » Fri Dec 15, 2006 5:27 pm

Us Europeans are very naughty indeed. Lucky there are none of these species in US collections or this pedastal would be a very tenuous place to preach from Rich :wink:

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Postby RichFrye » Fri Dec 15, 2006 5:43 pm

Not an issue of Europeans being naughty. If I lived there and had absolutely no reason to fear owning smuggled or otherwise illegal frogs , I am sure I would entertain the idea. I would still however at least wonder why the CITES regs were in place.
As I said, I think it is a very obvious case of turning a blind eye to CITES regs. by European enforcement agents and/or those CITES officials per state.
I have no doubt there are illegal frogs here in the U.S. I also have no doubt that us Americans would never post pics ( let alone for sale adds) of a new Mysti, Vans, whatever, without great fear of our F+W coming down hard. That fear is well based. Why no fear in Europe? Tougher froggers???
Maybe the question of why it is OK to cross state borders without CITES permits could be addressed next?

Rich
Darts with parasites are analogous to mixed tanks, there are no known benefits to the frogs with either.


If tone is more important to you than content, you are at the wrong place.

My new email address is rich.frye@icloud.com and new phone number is 773 577 3476

955i

Postby 955i » Fri Dec 15, 2006 5:58 pm

Personally, I expect paperwork with my frogs when I buy from Europe (although I do not own the species in question here). I think a large part of it is that darts are a relatively new and specialist hobby and I am not sure that the expertise exists in the authorities to recognise what may or may not be a frog that has CITES protection.

I know that mystis, castis etc are not allowed to be sold at the Dutch frogday, but I believe that in Germany they are not so hot on what can and can't be sold at the shows.

The fact of it is that the vast majority of the CITES species in Europe, while they may have originally come from illegal frogs (or not, who knows how long some of their captive populations have been going for?), the fact that a lot of the frogs on offer are now definately CB stock probably makes people a bit more relaxed about owning and transporting them.

PGB

Postby PGB » Fri Dec 15, 2006 6:08 pm

the EU has free trade with member countries so "paper work" as such is not needed to move animals or plants between member countries.

As for the mysti thing... not long ago I called USF&W and was told there is NO restrictions on importing them from Europe nor is there any restriction on vanzolinii ! i was shocked, so asked if they knew I was talking about the little brown frog with white spots and they said yes.

I called back exact same response from a different person.

Same thing a third time.

and then to make sure I called a Wildlife inspector @ Miami he said as long as they came in with CITES docs and the correct import export permits it was FINE to do so.

You could do this same argument with A LOT of frogs - castaneoticus, galacs and a few others so why the beef about mystis ?

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Postby RichFrye » Sun Dec 17, 2006 3:25 pm

As to officials who are employed to recognize certain plants and animals, I would place a very large bet on the fact that if I went around my neighborhood and collected a few toad and frogs that are native to Michigan , or almost anywhere else here in the U.S. , or Europe for that matter,added ANY of my Darts to the mix and played a game of "one of these things doesn't belong here" with my three year old nephew he would be able to point out the Dart every single time with 100% accuracy. The argument that a professional who is paid to do so yet does not have the same ability as any three year old does not hold water. Sorry.
Free trade is not an idea exclusive to Europe. We have free trade agreements here also. Free trade agreements have absolutely nothing to do with trade in CITES animals. Again, you can add to the CITES agreements, not take away (or turn a blind eye) . All of the coffee shops in Europe sell pot and hash right? Prostitution is legal everywhere in Europe , right?
If you look up member nations on the supplied CITES website you are not going to see Europe listed. You will find each separate nation.
Export papers are required every time a Dart is exported or re-exported, or re-re-exported.
Mystis are a hot topic because of the initial way they were smuggled into Europe. Not only was there a crime as to the smuggling , but the animals were stolen to be smuggled. Also they (I belive their habitat actually) are in greater danger of going extinct than Brazilian Darts that were brought in legally under research papers and they wrongfully released to the public.
The CITES site is a very good read. Very informative.

Rich
Darts with parasites are analogous to mixed tanks, there are no known benefits to the frogs with either.


If tone is more important to you than content, you are at the wrong place.

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Postby RichFrye » Sun Dec 17, 2006 3:47 pm

Also Paul, the three times I have actually spoken to a F+W agent I was either fed incorrect information on purpose or inadvertently , but it was VERY incorrect info none the less.
F+W scare :shock: :shock: :shock: :shock: :shock: the crap out of me and I generally don't scare too easily.
I tend to trust what is written down when it comes to legal stuff.
Darts with parasites are analogous to mixed tanks, there are no known benefits to the frogs with either.


If tone is more important to you than content, you are at the wrong place.

My new email address is rich.frye@icloud.com and new phone number is 773 577 3476

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Postby RichFrye » Sun Dec 17, 2006 4:11 pm

A bit more info on Mystis:
http://dendrobates.org/mysteriosus.html
Darts with parasites are analogous to mixed tanks, there are no known benefits to the frogs with either.


If tone is more important to you than content, you are at the wrong place.

My new email address is rich.frye@icloud.com and new phone number is 773 577 3476

PGB

Postby PGB » Mon Dec 18, 2006 3:34 pm

lol i think this has to be the first time we have ever got into a debate of any kind :wink:

OK to clear some things up:

Prostitution is NOT legal in every country in Europe

Pot is NOT available in EVERY cafe in Europe

Not sure about the prostitution thing but as far as i am aware the only country weed is available in cafes is Holland... funny enough but this is also the same country that a certain frog group wont allow mystis to be sold or brought to their shows along with a few other including Granuliferus.

I have it in writing some where that the US F&W would allow CB mystis with CITES papers in to the country (it's an email so i will have to dig)

I have seen the dendrobates.org site and find it interesting that every time it mentions smuggling they say Europe or European lol with the same frogs that are widely available in the US but no US smuggleing is listed :?

Don't get me wrong Rich I hate smuggling and smugglers and i have been burnt by buying (unknowingly I might add) smuggled frogs.

Its a cruel and unneeded thing to do.

so, were Granuliferus ever exported legally?

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Postby RichFrye » Mon Dec 18, 2006 4:33 pm

Hi Paul,

Debates good . Fluff bad. I would say this is indeed a debate worth going over. As far as the F+W paperwork, I am guessing that it reads: IF, IF , you can produce real live legit paperwork for an animal , you can import it. You will not be able to produce such paperwork for Mystis or it would have been done here long ago.
I tend to group Darts (remembering all Darts are CITES appendix II) into these loose categories when it comes to legality:

1: CBs ,F1s,F2, ect. , totally 100% legal to the general public to have and hold.

2: F2s, F3s, ect. totally legal to the general public.

3: Darts that were brought into a country with legal paperwork for a frog that is as close to the species trying to be properly imported as possible. In other words, we think this is a pumilio , it is as close to a pumilio as any other Dart we can find, we will import it with pumilio papers.

4: Darts that were brought in the way of group 4 only the importers know exactly what the species or sub-species is and is trying to sneak them past officials who may not know exactly what they are looking at.

5: Darts that were brought in under research papers and were allowed to be released to the general public for noncommercial use.

6:Darts that were brought in under research papers and produced F2 generation that were allowed to be used for commercial purposes.

7: Darts that were brought in under research papers and were released to the general public breaking the member nation agreement that no animals would ever be released to the public.

8: Darts smuggled in that were never exported legally.

The fact that many of our frogs here in the U.S. and Europe, and I am sure Japan and a number of other nations across the world were at one time under different status than now is not at issue. The point I am trying to make is that just because your local cop does not find it necessary to enforce what he or she believes to be a silly or useless time wasting law does not mean the law is not being broken.

With the above groups of Darts a good portion of the Darts we have in the hobby deemed legal (but possibly not totally) got here with no ill intentions with no alterior motives. Many of the darts in the hobby did/do come in under less honorable situations though.

One thing I have noticed is that in Europe it seems much easier to find true Dart brokers. Froggers more than willing to sell (export) you frogs you want without knowing you or your ability to care for the Darts.

I don't have a problem with froggers wanting cool Darts, obviously. I have a problem with blind eyes. The simple fact of the matter is that Europe does smuggle in large numbers of Darts. The rate at which they are caught before entering Europe with the Darts is sooo heavily lopsided it does not take a math wiz to see what's going on. Couple that with the number of indisputably illegal frogs that pop up in European want adds without fear of going to jail and we have a situation.

I tried to look up Grannies on the CITES site, but either my computer is crappin on me again or the site is running very slow. I belive there are smuggled Grannies here , there, and other countries. I belive the ones I have are F2s, 3s, whatever. I think that the majority of Grannies brought in with paperwork came in under pumilio papers or research papers. When a Darts is brought in under paperwork that is actually an attempt to list and import the Darts as ethically as possible and is later found to have come in under incorrect paperwork, this is a hugely different situation that someone jamming a load of darts into film cans and sneaking them in. It is also different than someone knowing exactly what they have, getting paperwork for an exportable , legal Dart, and slapping the bogus paperwork in with the illegal Darts hoping the state officials don't know what they are looking at. You may have noticed that my Grannies are up for trade....


Rich
Darts with parasites are analogous to mixed tanks, there are no known benefits to the frogs with either.


If tone is more important to you than content, you are at the wrong place.

My new email address is rich.frye@icloud.com and new phone number is 773 577 3476

PGB

Postby PGB » Mon Dec 18, 2006 4:42 pm

I didn't notice mate. I don't bother looking at sale/trade ads on your side of the pond as I can't get them, LOL but if ya like I have some F3 Mystis I wouldn't mind trading :wink: :lol:

sooo should we make a bet as to whether or not i can get official docs from CITES to re-export some? :lol: I wouldn't mind a sail boat :wink:

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Postby RichFrye » Mon Dec 18, 2006 5:01 pm

We should be able to cut and paste the status on Mystis. If the site comes back on line.

Honestly, if Mystis are ever legally exported to the U.S. I hear they breed like Auratus, and may be one of those frogs you need to see in person to get the full effect, but I don't see the huge draw to them.
I do hope they are actually being farmed effectively.

Rich
Darts with parasites are analogous to mixed tanks, there are no known benefits to the frogs with either.


If tone is more important to you than content, you are at the wrong place.

My new email address is rich.frye@icloud.com and new phone number is 773 577 3476

PGB

Postby PGB » Mon Dec 18, 2006 5:03 pm

yup they breed easy in captivity so I am told.

I personally have never seen a bolder frog ,active and the color though not as 'wow" as some tincs and pumilio, but they almost glow. Amazing, really amazing.

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Postby RichFrye » Mon Dec 18, 2006 5:10 pm

All I can find so far is that they have been red listed since 1990.
Darts with parasites are analogous to mixed tanks, there are no known benefits to the frogs with either.


If tone is more important to you than content, you are at the wrong place.

My new email address is rich.frye@icloud.com and new phone number is 773 577 3476

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Postby RichFrye » Mon Dec 18, 2006 8:52 pm

Hey Paul,

Me and Robb are out numbered by you guys.

http://www.gifkikkers.nl/
Darts with parasites are analogous to mixed tanks, there are no known benefits to the frogs with either.


If tone is more important to you than content, you are at the wrong place.

My new email address is rich.frye@icloud.com and new phone number is 773 577 3476

PGB

Postby PGB » Tue Dec 19, 2006 4:40 am

No sir... you and Rob are out numberd by the Europeans :wink: As we have discussed I am English :lol: good try mate :P

I do see you and your nancy in the top 10 tho!

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Re: Mystis legal in all of Europe, but not rest of world ?

Postby Philsuma » Thu Sep 13, 2012 6:13 pm

Taken from a Dutch Dart Frog Website. Apparently Mysti's are NOT Legal to keep in the Netherlands.

Wow.



Legality Issue Excidobates mysteriosus
Posted on: April 06, 2012 11:03

On March 19, 2012 is a matter for the Multiple Chamber in The Hague has been on keeping Excidobates mysteriosus for the hobby. On April 2, 2012 was the verdict. The relevant hobbyist is sentenced to a fine of 2750 euros, 2000 euros conditionally (the requirement was 5000 euros) and remove from use of these frogs. All defenses of the defense by the judges dismissed, including the fact that captive bred frogs would fall under the exemption scheme. That is not the case. The species E. mysteriosus can and can not legally custody. By the decision of the court is now case law in this regard.


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