Positive for Coccidia - treatments ?

Have a sick Dart Frog? Preventative, Treatments, Methods and Medicines.
frogface
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Re: Positive for Coccidia - treatments ?

Postby frogface » Tue Jul 23, 2013 12:41 pm

So Coccidia invades other tissues and the ponazuril only medicates through the intestines? It does not effect Coccidia in other tissues? Am I understanding that correctly ?
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Re: Positive for Coccidia - treatments ?

Postby frogface » Wed Jul 24, 2013 8:06 pm

Handing out poo updates. Previously, they were leaving wet smears with no substance. Now, several weeks post treatment, they continue to leave delicious tinc poos. Sorry, but there is no one else (outside of you weirdo frog people) who understands why this is so exciting. :lol:

Image

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Rusty_Shackleford
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Re: Positive for Coccidia - treatments ?

Postby Rusty_Shackleford » Thu Jul 25, 2013 12:16 am

Yes, I just gave thanks for delicious tinc poos.

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Re: Positive for Coccidia - treatments ?

Postby RichFrye » Thu Jul 25, 2013 5:53 pm

Hey Kris,
what was the future treatment regimen suggested? Since coccidia was a theory and coccidia is a lifelong issue, not curable. Was future testing suggested ?

Rich
Darts with parasites are analogous to mixed tanks, there are no known benefits to the frogs with either.


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Re: Positive for Coccidia - treatments ?

Postby frogface » Thu Jul 25, 2013 6:48 pm

Future treatment/testing was not suggested other than to keep them updated on how the frogs are doing.
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Re: Positive for Coccidia - treatments ?

Postby frogface » Thu Jul 25, 2013 6:50 pm

Here's a link that was recommended to me on another board: http://vetmed.illinois.edu/mmitch/pdf/ponazuril.pdf
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Re: Positive for Coccidia - treatments ?

Postby frogface » Thu Jul 25, 2013 9:52 pm

Ok I've been talking about this here and elsewhere. Here is what I've gathered:

1) Coccidia is generally considered to be incurable in PDFs

2) Ponazuril is a fairly new treatment for PDFs

3) Ponazuril is shown to eliminate coccidia in bearded dragons

4) Whether or not ponazuril eliminates coccidia in PDFs is not yet known.

5) General thoughts are that ponazuril does not eliminate coccidia in PDFs because it infiltrates other tissues

6) Ponazuril is found to penetrate brain/blood barriers (does that mean it does treat in 'other tissues'?)

7) Coccidia is common

8 ) Anyone with a negative fecal may still have coccidia in their collection

9) Coccidia is not an issue unless the PDF becomes symptomatic

10) Coccidia cannot be ruled out except with necropsy/histopathology

Does that sound right?

The reason (or one of many reasons) that I am pursuing this is that my pair is a breeding pair. My concern is producing froglets that might carry coccidia. My vet noted that if my pair continues to be asymptomatic, I should be fine producing froglets. She did suggest that I let prospective froglet owners know of the parents history. Of course I would do this. Several people have said that they would take froglets from this pair. These people are experienced froggers.

What are the thoughts here?
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Re: Positive for Coccidia - treatments ?

Postby Philsuma » Thu Jul 25, 2013 10:12 pm

Great additions to this thread Kris. Thank you for putting in hours, effort and $$ and reporting back. This is what the hobby is about. I learned some things here and will conduct more research and gather more info and report back here with a post or two hopefully.

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Re: Positive for Coccidia - treatments ?

Postby BcsTx » Thu Jul 25, 2013 10:35 pm

Hun, I would be sure to do a strict QT on this pair ie not in your frogroom with your other frogs.
As far as froglets are concerned I would test the heck out of them. Three clean fecals at least 2 weeks apart (more time is better due to coccidia will shed.) I really appreciate your transparency we need lots of it in this hobby and I commend you for it. Like you said the new drug has not been proven to elimanate coccidia in PDF's but works with reptiles, cats, dogs and horses ( have this info from an Exotic Vet).
Runny poopie does not confirm coccidia, firm poopie after treatment of a drug not studied with results in PDF's does not prove the drug is curing frogs of it. Untill pos coccidia via fecals or necropsy, frogs treated and studies are done I am not sold and would not sell froglets. If positive coccidia results after several positives I would euthenize.
We all do things differently, I am not questioning your methods in good faith just giving my opinion.
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Re: Positive for Coccidia - treatments ?

Postby frogface » Thu Jul 25, 2013 11:11 pm

Yes, I believe in truth and transparency. Much, much easier than remembering lies, lol.

Some things to ponder:

Do you have coccidia in your collection? How do you know?

Does the frog you just purchased have coccidia? How will you know?

If you don't know whether or not your frogs have coccidia, do you sell froglets anyway?

:lol:
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Re: Positive for Coccidia - treatments ?

Postby BcsTx » Thu Jul 25, 2013 11:40 pm

Hun I test and QT every frog then do annual tests plus PCR for for coccidia and rana. New frogs are typically in QT for 3 months plus before putting in a new viv.
IMO runny poos and firm poos on a leaf do not "cut it." I would not sell frogs that could "potentially" ie coccidia is extremely easily spread, per current research sell "froglets" that could spread the disease into the hobby.
If you have buyers fine, hope you give a "huge" discount.
-Beth

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Re: Positive for Coccidia - treatments ?

Postby RichFrye » Fri Jul 26, 2013 11:03 am

frogface wrote:Yes, I believe in truth and transparency. Much, much easier than remembering lies, lol.

Some things to ponder:

Do you have coccidia in your collection? How do you know?

Does the frog you just purchased have coccidia? How will you know?

If you don't know whether or not your frogs have coccidia, do you sell froglets anyway?

:lol:


Hi Chris,
I'm having trouble with a few bits of logic here.
The write-up you posted was written in 2008. And it says, pertaining to bearded dragons, that the "
The author reported that the animals remained coccidia-
free for over 1 year posttreatment."

How is that possible when the ONLY way we can truly tell if an animal is coccidian free is post mortem ?

The interview with the doctor who is considered the pinnacle of exotics was in 2010 , I believe ( well after the write up) and Dr. Wright specifically mentions "

Rich "Coccidia In your opinion, the darts' system doesn't ever really wipe that out."

Dr. Wright "No, because they definitely go in other tissues , not just the intestines. So the ponazuril is what I have had really great success with."


Dr. Wright had been using ponazuril already and was of the mind that there was still no cure , including ponazuril.



I am having a great deal of trouble trying to understand exactly what your personal vet's opinion of how coccidia react in, are tested in and are treated in dart frogs.

There is no cure at this time for coccidia.
Coccidians can and are found in dart frog fecal samples frequently. But the infection has been going down steadily since our hobby goes away more and more from crickets, a huge vector for all things nasty, including coccidian.
If you are showing signs of runny poop and it's obvious that the infection has hit the digestive tract , yet the diagnosis found zero coccidian signs in multiple fecal tests I am at a bit of a quandary as to;
How coccidia was diagnosed by runny yet coccida free poop.
Darts with parasites are analogous to mixed tanks, there are no known benefits to the frogs with either.


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Re: Positive for Coccidia - treatments ?

Postby RichFrye » Fri Jul 26, 2013 11:19 am

frogface wrote:
Some things to ponder:

Do you have coccidia in your collection? How do you know?

Does the frog you just purchased have coccidia? How will you know?

If you don't know whether or not your frogs have coccidia, do you sell froglets anyway?

:lol:



Testing.
If your frogs have an issue with their digestive tract, generally something shows in it's digestive tract. This is why we test.

If you have frogs which are fecaled at regular intervals and they have shown zero signs of coccidia and their offspring have shown zero signs of coccidia and they all remain asymptomatic , year after year, never once showing a sign of coccidia ...they MAY be free of coccidia . Maybe. One thing we know is that all frogs in the link have been and remain coccidian symptom free.
A total asymptomatic frog and every froglet which comes after it, via testing, is what we are hoping for whether it be coccidia , hooks, lungs, etc.

Now, we go to the other end of the spectrum.
If you have a frog which has been diagnosed with coccidia and absolutely has been symptomatic and it tests positive for coccidia , then you can bet you bottom dollar you frog has coccidia and will for it's natural life, unless a cure is found.
The fact that your frog was symptomatic and there is no cure will make one expect a possible future resurfacing of symptoms.

I am not sure yet where your frogs lie Chris. You say they were symptomatic and the digestive tracts is definitely showing signs of an infection, yet nothing was found via fecals and coccidia was diagnosed.



So, to answer your question of "how do we know"?
Get good and reliable information on testing and testers and test away.
If nothing is ever found , well, there are plenty of things that are not proven until death.
Darts with parasites are analogous to mixed tanks, there are no known benefits to the frogs with either.


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Re: Positive for Coccidia - treatments ?

Postby frogface » Fri Jul 26, 2013 11:35 am

Thanks Rich

Let me clarify though; my frogs were not diagnosed with coccidia. They had diarrhea that only partially reponded to tx with metronidazole. Then symptoms would return. The treatment with ponazuril was for possible coccidia. Fecals did not show coccidia so we presumed false negative and treated for coccidia. With ponazuril, their symptoms improved.
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Re: Positive for Coccidia - treatments ?

Postby RichFrye » Fri Jul 26, 2013 11:43 am

frogface wrote:Thanks Rich

Let me clarify though; my frogs were not diagnosed with coccidia. They had diarrhea that only partially reponded to tx with metronidazole. Then symptoms would return. The treatment with ponazuril was for possible coccidia. Fecals did not show coccidia so we presumed false negative and treated for coccidia. With ponazuril, their symptoms improved.


Did fecals show absolutely nothing ? No bacteria, nothing? Because the system is flushing bad stuff out...
Darts with parasites are analogous to mixed tanks, there are no known benefits to the frogs with either.


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Re: Positive for Coccidia - treatments ?

Postby frogface » Fri Jul 26, 2013 12:56 pm

There was very little coming out of the frogs. The samples I was able to get were very small. Nothing was showing in them. There were a couple of samples that I wasn't sure was even poo vs a small spot of dirt. I'll see if I can find pics to show you what I mean. Is it possible that nothing was seen because the samples were so poor?

I will be getting more fecals done now that the pooping has improved. I plan on doing a fairly long series of them. What intervals do you recommend?
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Re: Positive for Coccidia - treatments ?

Postby RichFrye » Fri Jul 26, 2013 1:07 pm

These are things to be discussed with your vet. I'm certainly not the one to suggested treating intervals or dosing. You really need to explain to your vet that samples may not have been fresh or large enough or even fecal matter at all.

The logic I am basing this on keeps coming back to very obvious symptoms (runny poop) with zero infection found in runny poop. It's sort of like saying 'my cake is burnt, but there's no evidence of heat'.
Darts with parasites are analogous to mixed tanks, there are no known benefits to the frogs with either.


If tone is more important to you than content, you are at the wrong place.

My new email address is rich.frye@icloud.com and new phone number is 773 577 3476

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Re: Positive for Coccidia - treatments ?

Postby Sally » Fri Jul 26, 2013 1:31 pm

BcsTx wrote:Hun I test and QT every frog then do annual tests plus PCR for for coccidia and rana. New frogs are typically in QT for 3 months plus before putting in a new viv.
IMO runny poos and firm poos on a leaf do not "cut it." I would not sell frogs that could "potentially" ie coccidia is extremely easily spread, per current research sell "froglets" that could spread the disease into the hobby.
If you have buyers fine, hope you give a "huge" discount.


Just for clarity Beth, I believe you meant to say "PCR for chytrid and rana"

Kris, I probably missed it but I know another sign or symptom of coccidia is weight loss, judging from your picture of the pair.. this was not a problem! However I would be curious to know after your treatment if they put on more weight.

Rich, a question for you, surely there are other things that would cause loose feces besides parasites?

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Re: Positive for Coccidia - treatments ?

Postby RichFrye » Fri Jul 26, 2013 2:04 pm

Sally wrote:
Rich, a question for you, surely there are other things that would cause loose feces besides parasites?

Yes, potentially bacteria, fungus, virus, etc. and other parasites besides coccida . Many can be tested for. Many showing in fecal samples.
This is only one reason why I asked why a vet would find absolutely nothing in a runny poop sample and then guess possible coccidian infection...metronidazole only treating certain (usually known and accurately diagnosed) things.
Darts with parasites are analogous to mixed tanks, there are no known benefits to the frogs with either.


If tone is more important to you than content, you are at the wrong place.

My new email address is rich.frye@icloud.com and new phone number is 773 577 3476

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Re: Positive for Coccidia - treatments ?

Postby RichFrye » Fri Jul 26, 2013 2:10 pm

Sally wrote:
Kris, I probably missed it but I know another sign or symptom of coccidia is weight loss, judging from your picture of the pair.. this was not a problem! However I would be curious to know after your treatment if they put on more weight.



Sally, some coccidian strains are less or more symptomatic. You may have a frog with coccidia which is never symptomatic. However, for frogs which are symptomatic when caught early enough and when frogs are in a low stress environment weight loss may never become a symptom.
Darts with parasites are analogous to mixed tanks, there are no known benefits to the frogs with either.


If tone is more important to you than content, you are at the wrong place.

My new email address is rich.frye@icloud.com and new phone number is 773 577 3476


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