Thoughts on keeping 2.1 ratio Oophaga pumilio?

Oophaga arborea
Oophaga granulifera
Oophaga histrionica
Oophaga lehmanni
Oophaga occultator
Oophaga pumilio
Oophaga speciosa
Oophaga sylvatica
Oophaga vicentei
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Sherman
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Thoughts on keeping 2.1 ratio Oophaga pumilio?

Postby Sherman » Mon Sep 05, 2016 11:51 am

I would like to solicit thoughts and experiences on keeping O. pumilio in a 2.1 group from the hobby.
Thanks,
Chris

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Philsuma
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Re: 2.1 O. pumilio?

Postby Philsuma » Mon Sep 05, 2016 1:50 pm

The singular sentence brings to mind my 'Dart Frog - Baseball' analogy: " CAN a person throw a baseball 20 feet straight up into the air and position themselves underneath it so as it catch it on their chin without breaking any part of their face' ? SURE it CAN be done. Should you run outside and attempt it? Want to meet every thursday night to practice it?

Well, we need a bit more information here, to give you a pointed response...but I'll take a crack at it and hope you attend back to this thread with more info / updates. Since I truly don't know if your question is 100% for you, or if it is a hypothetical question for the masses....well...here goes.

All Dart Frogs have the ability to combat and stress either other - both sexes. Some species and some sexes are a bit more skewed and O. pumilio does have it's percentages as well. Add to that fact, these animals can cause each other stress to the point of mortality and then double or tripled those odds in smaller or ill-designed vivaria and I personally come up with the advice for new hobbyists of:

Keep your frog sex ratios to 1.1 - 1 male and 1 female.

When you add or expand other parameters such as enclosure size, increase caloric intake (more food and frequency), well designed hides, retreats and visual barriers, hobby experience of the Keeper, only then should a hobbyist consider keeping beyond the 1.1, in my opinion.

Pumilio sex specific info as related to average captive breeding programes in the U.S:

1. Males are most likely to fight for territory and dominance. I would place fighting and stress frequency at very close to 100%. Males have also been reported to eat eggs, but I'm not sure if this is more of a caloric or nutritional issue, than a dominance issue.

2. Females can also fight and stress each other out, and eat the eggs of a subordinate female. Very common to have egg eating. Females DO also tend to feed each others tadpoles, and I surmise that this cooperation whether active or not, is the driving factor in our hobby for the advocacy of a second FEMALE or 1.2 - produce more froglets!

3. The BEST case scenario for a second male is to have a large amount of extra room - WAY more than a '20 gallon or 30 gallon' size and then it becomes submissive or subordinate. Again, what are you planning to achieve ? What are you goals and reasoning behind a second male?

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Philsuma
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Re: Thoughts on keeping 2.1 ratio Oophaga pumilio?

Postby Philsuma » Mon Sep 05, 2016 2:05 pm

on personal experiences:

I've seen over a dozen instances of combating and high-stress behaviour between both 2 adult male pumilio and 1 male adult and a suspected juvenile male. Enough to separate or I'm sure death or serious stress decline would undoubtedly occur.

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Re: Thoughts on keeping 2.1 ratio Oophaga pumilio?

Postby joneill809 » Tue Sep 06, 2016 11:52 am

Phil - how big of an enclosure would it take to handle a group of pumilio? If anybody can go big on an enclosure it's gonna be Chris :)
Jim from Austin please contact me if you are willing to trade offspring from:
lorenzo - schwinn line|NAIB true sips|fantastica nominant
http://www.oneillscrossing.com/dart-frogs/

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Re: Thoughts on keeping 2.1 ratio Oophaga pumilio?

Postby Philsuma » Tue Sep 06, 2016 1:08 pm

Big...really big and well designed. 3 pumilio in a @ 40 gallon vert ? Hard to give a more precise size without knowing a lot more.

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Re: Thoughts on keeping 2.1 ratio Oophaga pumilio?

Postby markpulawski » Wed Nov 30, 2016 12:14 pm

Actually Phil this question I believe was the result of an ad in which 2.1 groups of desirable Pumilio were made available, since the sports douche that got them had way too many males he only offered them as 2.1's, so if you wanted a pair you had to buy an extra male. I have no doubt most were assured this combo COULD work, sadly the douche has gone from having passion for this hobby to merely wanting to make money off of it.

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Re: Thoughts on keeping 2.1 ratio Oophaga pumilio?

Postby Philsuma » Wed Nov 30, 2016 4:33 pm

Indeed Mark....indeed.


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