front legs "popping" to exit from the water

[Stu&Shaz]

Could you please tell us how long from the front legs popping out will it be for a tadpole to exit the water. Specifically we want Dendrobates auratus info initially more specifically suberblue auratus. To add depth to this question: how much does it vary within a species with different morphs, and then further...how much does this vary between species and geni (or genuses)?

Mainly this is relevant to the non oophaga for us, well for the moment anyway ,but i am greatly interested in all darts. I have been digging for a while now but have yet to find some fairly detailed guidelines. Of course this could simply be that it varies from tadpole to tadpole,on how it is reared etc
Thanks.

Regards,
Stu

[Philsuma]

Metamorphosis varies greatly by:

1. Species
2. Water Temperature
3. Nutrient intake - amount and composition
4. The presence of siblings

Among others. Weirder still, to throw a wrench (or spanner as you guys put it) is that no matter what....in a random group of tads, some will always "pop" earlier than others for what appears to be unknown reasons. As they were all fed and housed the same.

It's as if some are programed to morph at different times to survive as a species, IMO.

This is one husbandry aspect that I stopped trying to track a long time ago. When it happens, it happens. Heh

[Stu&Shaz]

Metamorphosis varies greatly by:

1. Species
2. Water Temperature
3. Nutrient intake - amount and composition
4. The presence of siblings

Among others. Weirder still, to throw a wrench (or spanner as you guys put it) is that no matter what....in a random group of tads, some will always "pop" earlier than others for what appears to be unknown reasons. As they were all fed and housed the same.

It's as if some are programed to morph at different times to survive as a species, IMO.

This is one husbandry aspect that I stopped trying to track a long time ago. When it happens, it happens. Heh

yeah i thought it might be like that ,with regards to general morph Phil,I'm specifically after the last bit front legs to out of the water and ha i bet that varies just as much,totally understand your line about programmed,what I'm thinking is not getting caught by a tad/froglet running around the room.. and how much time do i have for conjuring stuff up. I do have a contingency plan,am not totally wanting,just searching as always...scheming/thinking!! :lol:
thanks buddy
Stu

[Stu&Shaz]

Succintly put will these 2 front legs do him well?



thanks again
Stu

[Philsuma]

They look fine and strong to me.

Do you have a graduated / sloped, morph out container. Tads with fronts popped can drown if they can't get out of the water.

The minute mine pop fronts, sometimes even before....I transfer em' to the sloped morph out tank.

[Stu&Shaz]

They look fine and strong to me.

Do you have a graduated / sloped, morph out container. Tads with fronts popped can drown if they can't get out of the water.

The minute mine pop fronts, sometimes even before....I transfer em' to the sloped morph out tank.

Ha well mate am ruddy chuffed about the legs i haven't done tads for so long now and as you know have been paranoid about the sls...rock'n'roll.

Ok well the second bit is what i was fishing for last night :lol: :lol: :lol: we have a tub prepared but he's bobbing up and down in his glass at present,will have it sorted very soon like within the hour.

Realistically he should be fine i had little problems with our native tads and used to rear silly numbers as a child ,but there is always going to be something really special about the first dart frog you raise,soft old sod ain't I :lol: Between the 2 of us i think shaz has cultured enough food to feed half the darts in England,but we best not say anything i think she thinks they might go hungry :lol: Thanks for the speedy response mate. Phil when do your auratus start to show any colour? ha bet that varies too.

regards,
Stu

[EntoCraig]

Thanks for pointing me to this topic Phil...

Is is true morphed froglets may go in and out of the water for a few days? When is it safe to move them to a 'rearing container' after they have come our of the water?

Here are some pics of what I picked up:
dart-frog-photographs-wild-habitat-pics-f37/my-collection-just-got-much-bigger-t5505.html

[Philsuma]

When the tail is almost 100% absorbed.....then it's ready for land / grow-out enclosure.

[EntoCraig]

Thanks for clarifying! I'm excited

[Stu&Shaz]

Craig congrats on your new haul ,some obsevations from one beginner,that might just help, and are very relevent to Phil's post above.Our auratus always absorb all their tails then come out of the water,our mysties start venturing out with about half a tail, i don't know if this is indicative of each species but cirtainly with the auratus and now 14 ootw they all do exactly the same. Because i have seen pictures,of folks simply tipping over the glass/cup and letting nature take its course with the exit from the water,i adoted this practice.With the auratus it has been 100% sucessful,but i have a hunch,not totally sure' that it might have cost me dear with our first 3 mysties,the edge of the glass is slightly raised from the substrate and i don't think they could find there way back.Im stressing the importance now of Phils post,because they hadn't gone back to water after 48 hrs i removed the glasses,i lost 2 of the 3,soon after.
Now i'm not sure that this is a correct sumerisation of why i lost them,there might be other causes,but i have amended this situation just in case. After the euphoria of this species morphing with no sls( here many guys loose vast amounts at first to this),we were really knocked back by losing these little guys,up until this point we have only lost tads under one week old.
So just a tiny thing that might actually be extrodinarily important at this delicate stage in a young frogs life.
In away i hope that the above is accurate,as it will bode well for the tads coming behind, but damn me it hurt pulling out those 2 little fellas just after we thought we had it nailed.I know we aren't meant to win them all,it is never going to happen,but nothing wrong in wanting that for all that appear strong and healthy,
regards
Stu

[Philsuma]

Stu...did your froglets drown ? Fairly certain ?

[Stu&Shaz]

Stu...did your froglets drown ? Fairly certain ?

no mate,ahh Phil my communication skills on this damn machine,the exact opposite :oops: ,i think that they could have done with getting back to the water,and ventured out,and could NOT get back,ie were not quite ready,to be totally terrestrial becuase they hadn't gone back i removed the water for fear of them drowning,and i think too soon.Maybe the skin changes drastically as they change to being terrestrial from aquatic,i don't know that of course theorising. I'm doing what i always do and analysing what i see and trying to react to that,basic stockmanship. i did notice one looked on the dry side,and the humidity was definitely,not at fault. The other possible causes of death were,too week,natures cast off....didn't start feeding,:possibly to much food to excite them? After that i'm at a loss but the first might be the most probable
Stu

[Philsuma]

Stu...sometimes I imagine you speaking "Piker"...lol...and then I have to get out my Guy Richie DVD's and use em' like Rosetta Stone.

Back to tads and popping...

I've transferred @ 20 Tincs, auratus and Leuc tadpoles with stubs of tails to almost 3/4 tails into grow-out boxes with no water before and in just a short day or two....the tails were absorbed. No issues.

I HAVE absolutely had 3 different tadpoles become metamorphs (fronts) and drown in either cups or in one case, a sloped tank. I think some duckweed or other fibrous aquatic plant material had trapped them in some manner.

I think the grow out bins need to have layers of leaf litter and be VERY moist and humid.

[Stu&Shaz]

Stu...sometimes I imagine you speaking "Piker"...lol...and then I have to get out my Guy Richie DVD's and use em' like Rosetta Stone.

Back to tads and popping...

I've transferred @ 20 Tincs, auratus and Leuc tadpoles with stubs of tails to almost 3/4 tails into grow-out boxes with no water before and in just a short day or two....the tails were absorbed. No issues.

I HAVE absolutely had 3 different tadpoles become metamorphs (fronts) and drown in either cups or in one case, a sloped tank. I think some duckweed or other fibrous aquatic plant material had trapped them in some manner.

I think the grow out bins need to have layers of leaf litter and be VERY moist and humid.

Lmao don't worry buddy its not you i do it here too.
Had absolutely no problems with auratus, Phil what so ever,these little spotty guys are a very different animal.very different as adults very different as eggs and tadpoles,as my knowledge and experiance grows i suspect that the leuc and tincs will be much more akin to the auratus,my first leuc clutch is behaving just like the auratus,apart from being a bit paler in colour. I'm listening to what your saying mate,may well be reading this wrong,jumping to the wrong conclusion.I do except that.
their rearing gaffs are very high on the humidity/moisture stakes,which is why i have ruled this out, and yes subs corse orchid bark a good deep layer of partially broken down leaf litter plus a good dressing of whole leaves to top it off,it just provides so many niches for them,and my springtails go really well in there,as we have said before mate can't win them all,i just want too is all
Stu

[EntoCraig]

Do any of you guys have any pics of your morph out and grow out tubs? I have seen a few but would like to see more ideas. Mine is simply a tilted, shoebox sized tote with about an inch of water in the deepest part of the slope.

[Stu&Shaz]

Do any of you guys have any pics of your morph out and grow out tubs? I have seen a few but would like to see more ideas. Mine is simply a tilted, shoebox sized tote with about an inch of water in the deepest part of the slope.

Have a look for glen's set up (frogfreak),he posted some pics for me,topic similarto your Q,but i can't remember exactly what
Stu

[EntoCraig]

I'll try to locate it.

[frogfreak]

Here it is...

[EntoCraig]

Aha, thanks!

[frogfreak]

Your welcome,

i like using the 16 oz. cups in a 5.5g tanks. You have to wedge them in a bit and it stops the cups from falling over.

I should add that in this pic the tads must have had a long tail. Once the tail is small I reduce all but a bit of water. All of the duckweed and Java moss is removed too.