Flaunting frogs of smuggled origins - E. mysteriosus

[frogfreak]

If they're sold in retail outlets, they're obviously ok to have in the UK and many other countries. IMO it's no different than having a Leuc, BYH, Oyapok and many more here.

[Stu&Shaz]

I don't think everyone is on the same page here, so I'll try to explain a little simple history.

Mysties are a dart species which were never exported for any reason at all from their native country. That country, Peru, has contacted several nations letting them know of their wishes to work with CITES member nations to stop the flow of their stolen property. Some nations actively seek out mysties being smuggled into their country , and some do not. The U.S.A. does follow the wishes of Peru in prosecuting the thieves and smugglers.
It's that simple.

I disagree, I believe we are all on the same exact page.

All of us want incredible frogs to care for and breed, but because of too much inaccurate/misinformation and no place to get real actual information we are still at the mercy of those that came before us. No one is excluded from this.

So how do those of us that are wanting to be in this hobby for years, protect ourselves and have up-to-the-minute information about what has been imported illegally to all countries?

Does having these mean the owners are now in violation of some law that can cause legal repercussions? Or is it simply the smugglers or thieves? (should they be caught)

Thanks

Jason

A lot of similar questions from this beginner,Jason,we need a paper trial,i,personally would rather we the hobbyists really tried to address things like this ourselves than have bureaucrats enforce stuff on us.I am new to all this,but right from the off have had difficulties knowing where my frogs come from. This affects my ability to select new blood to out cross to,my ability to decipher a smuggled frog from a bonafide frog,or in some cases which morph it actually is.(There are many discussions here about for example the yellow tincs,citronella vs nakita,what makes a true macheto etc).
Its a minefield for a novice,whom has with his partner taken up these stunning frogs as a lifetime commitment,and wants to give as well as experience the joys that these frogs bring to us
regards
Stu

[blocker institute]

Good thoughts Stu. What happens to all the frogs that already exist in the hobby - is this has to be the only approach? Are they all "trash" now?

It's been interesting to learn what it takes to even get "healthy" frogs into the US and still picking up information daily. I think I need a "roundtable" meeting with those that find it obscene that there's an "illegal" frog in someones collection. Most everyone that has made a comment "would love to have a few of those" and most don't because an individual that has no real input to this hobby just says no. "Mommy and Daddy" absolutely don't have all the right answers.

IMO, unless you are the actual individual that found, pulled and recorded all data for any particular species, then all we can do is stand behind what another human told us.....and we humans are always correct, right ?

The truth is, for all we know every one of the frogs in our collection is illegal. We didn't take them from the wild or record their data. We relied on the information given to us by the seller. Which is how this hobby has grown, right ?

Thanks
Jason

[Philsuma]

Since I have yet to sit down and talk to USFW myself (it WILL happen one day), all I have to go on, is Ed K. with his reported dealings with USF&W on this species and one other :

Exidobates mysterious - Illegal to possess in the U.S

Adelphobates castaneoticus - Illegal to possess in the U.S

I was offered several Casti's a few years ago, and for a reasonable price of $75.00 each. I turned them all down.

[blocker institute]

I'm referring to ALL species really.

[blocker institute]

This was an interesting read

http://www.traffic.org/home/2011/3/30/r ... study.html

[Philsuma]

I'm referring to ALL species really.

How so ? Rephrase your question again, please.

[Azurel]

He is saying that unless you have the CITES paper work from country of origin and import paper work from USF&W then all we can do is take the persons word that they are legal. Which in a sense is true, cause there could be smuggled variabilis, pum etc here and they are not legal, but ones that have a paper trail are. I cannot prove beyond a reasonable doubt that the frogs in my collection are of legal imported origin since I have no paper work in my possession that says so......I think that is what he is getting at.

[Philsuma]

I see now......but there IS a master USWF "action" list of illegal species somewhere. There has to be. Until then:

I cannot imagine that Pumilio or Variabilis or Auratus are on it, but I'm pretty sure myteriosus and castaneoticus are.

Am I worried about my frogs that don't have CITES paperwork ? Nope.

Would I be worried if I had mystis and castis in my basement ? Yep

[Azurel]

I see now......but there IS a master USWF "action" list somewhere. There has to be. Until then:

I cannot imagine that Pumilio or Variabilis or Auratus are on it, but I'm pretty sure myteriosus and castaneoticus are.

Am I worried about my frogs that don't have CITES paperwork ? Nope.

Would I be worried if I had mystis and castis in my basement ? Yep

I totally agree with that.....

Like my Dad used to say all the time when I would get in trouble....."You know how not to get in trouble? Don't put yourself in that situation".....Same thing applies in this case.

[Stu&Shaz]

So where does that leave me then guys,understood if i was in the states i wouldn't dream of keeping these,they are illegal and yup i too have turned down frogs i desired but questioned.Is it better that i no longer tell you of these, am i morally wrong for buying captive bred frogs,that lots of others keep in my country, and wishing to do right by them and to try and make right what happened in the past in my own tiny way, even though i had no part in something that happened years back ?

In the States, it should still be possible for the likes of understory to be able to make funds for these frogs if Peru chooses to release some for captive breeding, your hobby is massive compared to ours. Granted, the sales to the European market might now be compromised, but then again, maybe not. Our hobby seems to be always questing for new blood.That last statement is based on the prices of new (WC) frogs for sale in Holland (not mysties but other species). I have no idea how many frogs were originally taken from Peru, but they seem to do well in captivity, and even more numerous than some morphs of auratus here.

So granted we have a different situation here to there, what about an American take on what we should do over here. I have asked for guidance, is there nothing positive we can do with this situation as it exists ? We are in a position where by some quirk of fate a very precious, very scarce Dart frog, has become very numerous in captivity in Europe. Whats to be done ?

Regards,
Stu

[Philsuma]

If Mysties were legal to own in the U.S ,I'd have them. I hope someone here someone imports 25 pair of them from Europe soon.

Conservation is helped by massive Captive breeding. Cut out the smugglers. Only accept froglets or juveniles thus ensuring the frogs are captive born. No animals without paperwork

That's the dream anyway...

Keep posting about them Stu. I'm fine with it, and I think it is good for the hobby and the animals in the long run.

[Stu&Shaz]

If Mysties were legal to own in the U.S ,I'd have them. I hope someone exports 25 pair of them from Europe.

Conservation is helped by massive Captive breeding. Cut out the smugglers. Only accept froglets or juveniles thus ensuring the frogs are captive born. No animals without paperwork

That's the dream anyway...

Keep posting about them Stu. I'm fine with it, and I think it is good for the hobby and the animals in the long run.

If your sure mate, although there are more of you over there than here, and I know things can get ...hmmm passionate :lol: .I am not up for offending folks, there are to few of us for that in all countries ! Great strength in thoughtful debate without narrow thought.

Agreed - good to dream mate, ha and just sometimes they come true !
Stu

[Azurel]

I say if they are legal where you live then it is what it is.....I love seeing them, much like Phil said if I could legally have them I would as well....Keep up the good work m8.

James

[Stu&Shaz]

I say if they are legal where you live then it is what it is.....I love seeing them, much like Phil said if I could legally have them I would as well....Keep up the good work m8.

James

Thanks James, my above post is genuine and heartfelt - don't want to offend guys, its not in my nature. Funny enough the other bit of Phil's post and acquired knowledge,through captive care,is unbelievably apt for the last few days, as I have been talking to some guys here about these,and have uncovered some things that seem,say particularly important to this species, I'll talk more on our room thread from respect to the OP, also been a good day for these here...get in!

Thank you.
regards,
Stu

[Philsuma]

Stu,

I put your frogs on "our cover" for August. I hope you don't mind as you've already said you don't want confrontation.

Regardless of what people think, or their stance is towards that species, the photo will garner thought and possibly discussion and I feel that alone will serve as much needed awareness.

It's not rubbing it in any one's face. I've been in this hobby for over 7 years and have been considerably active, but I still don't know much about this species and it's status, both in the wild and captivity.

I feel that pic is a perfect choice for our POTM.

[Stu&Shaz]

Stu,

I put your frogs on "our cover" for August. I hope you don't mind as you've already said you don't want confrontation.

Regardless of what people think, or their stance is towards that species, the photo will garner thought and possibly discussion and I feel that alone will serve as much needed awareness.

It's not rubbing it in any one's face. I've been in this hobby for over 7 years and have been considerably active, but I still don't know much about this species and it's status, both in the wild and captivity.

I feel that pic is a perfect choice for our POTM.

Nah we don't mind Phil,in fact selfishly a little bit chuffed, especially with the quality of photos on here,although i don't personally think our shots are as good as some by the other folks here, but we are happy with your reasons,i think your intentions are good and honourable as are ours. I hope this might provoke thought, as to how some good can come for the wild frogs,from the European end,as i have already posted on this thread. yeah i am a bit apprehensive though.
Stu

[Michael Lawrence]

Based on the fact that this is the one frog that was never legally exported I'd be a little nervous about having them wherever I was as it seems out of nowhere law enforcement can just up and go after you. Not 100% that it would happen but you never know. They are nice enough frogs but if they ever show up here legally they will likely outnumber auratus within just a couple years based on their breeding behavior. Ive seen them in person before and they just don't outweigh the risks of trouble. I could name a few legal frogs Id be much more happy with.

Very nice pic on the homepage, its what caught my attention to this thread.
Michael

[Azurel]

Not sure though how they do things over in the U.K and Europe, I know here in the U.S I wouldn't be posting pics of them much less talking about having them. But If they are as out in the open over there in Europe in select countries then I don't think there is much to worry about other wise they would here of more rampant confiscations happening.

[Michael Lawrence]

They are commonly flaunted out there James, The problem is you never know if the law is going to step up to the plate one day and ''clean house''. I can tell you it does happen as Ive been hit a couple times by sheriffs and F&W years back when they thought I was keeping something I wasnt supposed to, word of mouth is what set it off. Luckily I had my hot permits and breeding permits and biz license's but they sat in the house for hours going through everything and ID'ing it all. What you or others post up can come back to haunt you later whether its ok now or not.

Michael