Understanding That Obligate Froglets Change Color

[RichFrye]

I would like to point out, for those who do not have experience with breeding obligates, that many times with many locales obligate offspring do not turn out to be the color or shade they morphed out as...

I bring this up after reading a post by Adam where he'd like me to explain in my "unscientific ways" why one of the Paru offspring someone else produced morphed orangy-ish and another sibling a bit more red-ish. It's mind blowing stuff, I know, but I think we need to get a decent sample size from mature offspring before we start actually crying polymorphic...I have plenty of obligates which produce lighter and darker colors within clutches . Most all change color in at least some way. What is most always constant is for me to be able to look at and adult of whatever I am personally breeding and tell you what general or more times than not what exact breeding locale it is after it has matured.

It has been months since I sent my third email to WIRIKI with zero response to a few simple questions relating to how their 'paru' should be bred in captivity. I am now not expecting any response , but thought it relevant to the issue which should be at the forefront of our minds. How do we breed these frogs in the most natural possible way?
IF it is in fact even possible to breed them in a natural manner.

The granny young in the below pics will most likely turn into the same tone and color as it's parent/s...




The young below , which was crazy-red turned into the orange adult color below in less than a year. It's not a supplemental coloration issue...





I have plenty of other examples (pictures) of obligate young changing colors after morphing, and pics of clutch-mates which look different in color and/or shade... but the simple point is made. And, Photobucket and most photo hosting sites I've tried are asininely slow and unreliable for posting lots of pics...

[Philsuma]

and as they age, froglets' patterns will change as well and not just from growth / stretching.

[thedude]

I would like to point out, for those who do not have experience with breeding obligates, that many times with many locales obligate offspring do not turn out to be the color or shade they morphed out as...

I bring this up after reading a post by Adam where he'd like me to explain why one of the Paru offspring someone else produced morphed orangy-ish and another sibling a bit more red-ish.

Never said I would like for you to explain anything, I was making a joke :roll: Not only that, but the joke was not exactly in context to one morphing orange, and another morphing red.

I've also morphed out quite a few Oophaga over the years, and know full well colors and patterns change as they age. Again, it was a joke :wink:

I have to say the difference in pumilio population metamorphs is pretty interesting to me. When I find newly morphed Cristobal froglets they are very vibrant, and usually get more dull as they mature. However, Blue Jean froglets morph out DARK, and then as they mature get extremely vibrant. Interesting stuff to say the least.

[RichFrye]

Well Adam, I have to say that there are some then that don't get your humor about the situation. And it is most definitely the first time I have read you joking about it. Glad it was at my expense and not someone with skin thinner than a bowl of puddin'...

"Nice job man! What size are they in relation to newly morphed pumilio?

I wonder what crazy non scientific, lacking in evidence, explanation you're gonna get from Rich as to why you got a red froglet"


Care to explain the joke? I'm having trouble 'getting it'.
Also, can you explain why a business would not reply to the exact emails I have posted here as to the slightest help telling us how we should breed frogs they bred and sold? I'm interested in your latest take on the whole matter. Mark's suggestion to contact WIRIKI has not worked.
You've been silent here after their silence...

[Roadrunner]

Rich, It's because no one sits there at the pens and watches to see who pairs with who to produce offspring. Do you expect someone to sit there for weeks taking notes to see that any one frog will breed with any other frog in the pen? If they say that and find that only "like"(whatever that is as the grade into each other and there are no definitive lines to separate) breed with like in captivity, there can be some kind of drama to smear wikiri?
Personally it seems like your trying to "catch" them in some kind of screw up. Whatever the circumstances, they are what they are, a breeding POPULATION of sylvatica. They should be managed by breeding whatever individuals will breed with whatever other individuals and keeping them under the Paru morph of sylvatica.
Personally, I think that they used to be one big population(all morphs of sylvatica) and human intervention and natural barriers have separated them over time. If a barrier disappears and two "morphs" become connected again and start interbreeding can we then start crossing those morphs in captivity? If we find locals move frogs from place to place and the local populations DO get gene flow because of this can we start mixing all sylvatica again?

[RichFrye]

Aaron, I've explained all this already.
But, at least you present a reasonable possibility. Human intervention, not nature. Which is far more than WIRIKI has answered...

[Roadrunner]

They did in whats his names description which they referenced you to. don't have any answers to the hard questions do you?

[RichFrye]

No "they" absolutely did not. "They" said there needs to be testing to understand what the hell is going on. Period. Never in one single bit of 'info' has anyone , be it Mark or WIRIKI ( both for profits...) ever said how they should be bred. Mark however plans to both mix and keep like with like,.

So, have you read my simple questions sent to "them"?

Nobody is really buying what was first pitched. A magical hugely polymorphic population which can be bred however you like. Complete with fairy dust...
Feel free to lay out which exact questions you'd have me answer, right here, right now, because I am not the one dodging questions here.

[RichFrye]

OK, the only question I get from your last post was referring to them "watching " frogs breed.
No , I don't expect 'them" to need to watch them breed. What I expect is for any pen which was constructed by man and has transplanted frogs in them to be inhabited by frogs which have a plan or reason to place in 'Pen 1" , 'Pen 2', Pen 33', etc. In other words , there should be a plan as to what goes where, there should be an idea of what frogs look like on far ends of a reserve, and there should be reasoning as to why a,b, and c are placed with each other.
There's no way in hell that population is that naturally vastly polymorphic and I want to know their thought processes behind how they bred them in pens.
There are plenty of other questions and concerns I have , but that's a start. I get zero answers. Period. From a business producing and SELLING US FROGS.
It's not mind blowing .

[edwardsatc]

There's no way in hell that population is that naturally vastly polymorphic and I want to know their thought processes behind how they bred them in pens.

I'm still on the fence as to whether these represent a single population, a natural intergrade, or some sort of bastard population created in pens. Their lack of a reasonable response certainly adds to my suspicion. That said, I'm not quite clear on why you think that there is no way that it could not naturally occur. Highly polymorphic populations occur throughout the animal kingdom. Some have vast natural ranges, some very small. There are hundreds of examples of highly polymorphic populations, such as:

[edwardsatc]

Or for example, the Asian Lady Beetle. Red, yellow, orange, brown, black, ... big spots, little spots, no spots. All of which you can observe in the same population, at the same time, and interbreeding - right in your own backyard.

[RichFrye]

There's no way in hell that population is that naturally vastly polymorphic and I want to know their thought processes behind how they bred them in pens.

I'm still on the fence as to whether these represent a single population, a natural intergrade, or some sort of bastard population created in pens. Their lack of a reasonable response certainly adds to my suspicion. That said, I'm not quite clear on why you think that there is no way that it could not naturally occur. Highly polymorphic populations occur throughout the animal kingdom. Some have vast natural ranges, some very small. There are hundreds of examples of highly polymorphic populations, such as:

I'm mainly sure they are not naturally truly vastly polymorphic (as represented) because out of the hundreds of dart frog species and thousands of breeding populations these would be the first which are hugely polymorphic. A veritable Lotto of 'luck'...for those saying breed as you like and those who wish to sell any morph with any other morph.
Now, compound that with intentional dodging of my emails , the words of their scientist which leave room for human manipulation and his words which say they need testing (testing which is said to be planned to be done after sales, not before all these frogs have been purchased) , and the muddy frogs many have received and you get the perfect bullshit storm.
But, polymorphic or not, we still have ZERO information on how to breed these. And I've asked, several, several times.

[RichFrye]

Or for example, the Asian Lady Beetle. Red, yellow, orange, brown, black, ... big spots, little spots, no spots. All of which you can observe in the same population, at the same time, and interbreeding - right in your own backyard.

Yes, yes, as are us humans. We are also "one population"...

[Philsuma]

While easily 'ahead' of the Panamanian Oophaga pumilio 'grab and send", in terms of advancement of the hobby and hobby $$ spent, we are still VERY far from the Holy Grail of document-able collection - insitu CB breeding - shipping to hobbyists - putting the $$ to good use.

Still pretty far...ways away, IMO

Brian K in C.R ? Calling Brian !!!!

[edwardsatc]

I'm mainly sure they are not naturally truly vastly polymorphic (as represented) because out of the hundreds of dart frog species and thousands of breeding populations these would be the first which are hugely polymorphic. A veritable Lotto of 'luck'...

Fortunately,for us, DNA mutations do not have anything to do with probability. I think the odds of humans evolving were infinitely less probable than a polymorphic Sylvatica population.

Polymorphic dart populations do exist (Cemetary Basti's), so why not Sylvaticus? The Basti's may not be "hugely polymorphic" (whatever that means) but they may have been at one time and are now much closer to equilibrium than the Paru.

The fact that we've never seen a "hugely polymorphic" population of dart frogs has no bearing on the actual existence of one, nor the probability of one occurring. Before the discovery of monotremes and the duck-billed platypus, what kind of odds do you think we would have put on the existence of an egg laying mammal? No less one that is also venomous, has a duck bill, and the feet of an otter ...

Bottom line is that genetic variation has nothing to do with our perception of the odds, previous existence, or even what we may perceive as totally impossible.

Despite my argument for the distinct possibility of a "highly polymorphic" population, I'm still skeptical as to the origins of the "parus", especially due to the seeming lack of transparency from the breeders.

[RichFrye]

The Lotto is won by someone every day.
Is it possible that these just happen to be the only vastly polymorphic dart population (vastly, show me a picture in black and white of a Cemetery basti and I'll most very likely guess basti. Paru, no such luck, not even close. We've gone over this recently) out of thousands? Yup. Is it probable? No way in my mind.
It has less to do with scientific possibilities as it does have to do with the huge silence when questions are asked and proof is asked for from those moving, breeding and selling paru.
There are many things which can happen in life. I'm more concerned with what has, does and will happen. And what will not happen is proper and natural breeding with zero input from the people breeding and selling these frogs.
Bottom line.

[RichFrye]

It is also worth noting that I am not the only person who has emailed WIRIKI with questions and not received answers.

[RichFrye]

Since Cemetery basti dorsal color polymorphism is used as an example, and since we have talked about possibilities and what may happen , I think it only fair to mention that one dart frog researcher is of the point of view that Cemetery bastis are only polymorphic due to smugglers ditching different locale pums in the Cemetery locale. Human manipulation.
I don't personally believe that to be the reason for the varied (although vastly/80% orange...) dorsal colors. But is it possible? Sure it's possible. And odds would also be infinitely more possible than humans evolving.